4 ms·

I think the point of disagreement between you and the other commenters is a subtle equivocation over the meaning of APM, something I've found to occur not infre

I think the point of disagreement between you and the other commenters is a subtle equivocation over the meaning of APM, something I've found to occur not infrequently in discussions around a metric. You seem to be talking about an underlying, unknown parameter for which APM provides a crude estimator. When you use the term APM as a proxy for that hidden parameter, people will often mistake your position for claims about the raw number they see on screen, which does not perfectly correlate with the desired attribute. In the case of APM, there are two major sources of error that make it a less-than-ideal estimator: 1) Not all actions are counted by APM. Moving the camera, moving your eyes to look at the mini map/minerals/supply counts/unit health, moving the mouse without clicking anything, pressing hot keys for targetable actions without confirming a target; these are all things which are not reflected in APM. 2) Many redundant actions are recorded as APM. Ordering a unit to move to one location and then clicking again in the exact same spot is a big one. Same goes for repeatedly selecting and deselecting groups of units without issuing any commands. Given the above sources of error, it is not unreasonable to believe that a player with 40 APM can defeat a player with 400, it's just less likely. The problem with extending this discussion to an AI is that the software does not suffer from these limitations. We can measure (and in fact control) the true number of actions the system uses to play the game. Unless programmed incorrectly, an AI should not waste any actions at all, so its measured APM won't be any higher than necessary. This makes it difficult to compare to a human player's APM.

jplayer01 7y ago
> 1) Not all actions are counted by APM. Moving the camera, moving your eyes to look at the mini map/minerals/supply counts/unit health, moving the mouse without clicking anything, pressing hot keys for targetable actions without confirming a target; these are all things which are not reflected in APM. Not all actions need to be. > 2) Many redundant actions are recorded as APM. Ordering a unit to move to one location and then clicking again in the exact same spot is a big one. Same goes for repeatedly selecting and deselecting groups of units without issuing any commands. The assumption here is that there is an end-all be-all metric for APM. It isn't. Just look at the discussions around EPM vs APM to get a taste. Anybody who thinks about APM understands that it isn't a 100% accurate measurement, and it just doesn't add anything to the conversation when everybody realizes that APM isn't 100% accurate. Further, it's no accident that AlphaStar's APM has been limited, stemming from the kinds of advantages it provides in a game like SC2 where APM is a limited resource for every player such that it lays constraints on and is related to or is constrained by all kinds of things from attention to cognitive load to strategy to micro to macro. APM is itself a metric that's incredibly important to the game, not just a proxy. The fact that it's related to so many other parts of the game is just an indicator of how important it is. Also, it's a big jump to say that all of AlphaStar's actions are effective and not wasted. At most you can say that there's no spam, because there's no need to. Pros will spam clicks just to keep their hands warm and moving, something which an AI doesn't need to do.

jplayer01 7y ago

> 1) Not all actions are counted by APM. Moving the camera, moving your eyes to look at the mini map/minerals/supply counts/unit health, moving the mouse without clicking anything, pressing hot keys for targetable actions without confirming a target; these are all things which are not reflected in APM. Not all actions need to be. > 2) Many redundant actions are recorded as APM. Ordering a unit to move to one location and then clicking again in the exact same spot is a big one. Same goes for repeatedly selecting and deselecting groups of units without issuing any commands. The assumption here is that there is an end-all be-all metric for APM. It isn't. Just look at the discussions around EPM vs APM to get a taste. Anybody who thinks about APM understands that it isn't a 100% accurate measurement, and it just doesn't add anything to the conversation when everybody realizes that APM isn't 100% accurate. Further, it's no accident that AlphaStar's APM has been limited, stemming from the kinds of advantages it provides in a game like SC2 where APM is a limited resource for every player such that it lays constraints on and is related to or is constrained by all kinds of things from attention to cognitive load to strategy to micro to macro. APM is itself a metric that's incredibly important to the game, not just a proxy. The fact that it's related to so many other parts of the game is just an indicator of how important it is. Also, it's a big jump to say that all of AlphaStar's actions are effective and not wasted. At most you can say that there's no spam, because there's no need to. Pros will spam clicks just to keep their hands warm and moving, something which an AI doesn't need to do.