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I think you misunderstood me. I am making the point that Bitcoin has basically no value. Its only value comes from the fact that currently enough people think i

by _ph_ 7y ago

I think you misunderstood me. I am making the point that Bitcoin has basically no value. Its only value comes from the fact that currently enough people think it has a value. Like the million dollar homepage. Once the novelty has worn off, it could drop to 0 value.

uoylj 7y ago
A secure global ledger does have value though. At least it does to lots of people.
- _ph_ 7y ago
  Yes, Bitcoin seems to be popular in the trade of illegal goods and for paying ransomware. Doesn't exactly explain why most other people invest so much into Bitcoin. And the security is very dubious, considering the track record of Bitcoin exchanges.
  - keymone 7y ago
    sigh, how this is still an argument? try going a step further and ask yourself why is bitcoin "popular in the trade of illegal goods and for paying ransomware". hint: there's a thing that is even more "popular in the trade of illegal goods and for paying ransomware" - cash. hopefully it's enough of a nudge in the right direction.
    - _ph_ 7y ago
      Sorry, thats just a strawman. Bitcoin enables sending money over the internet off official channels. You are not going to pay for ransomware with your credit card.
      - keymone 7y ago
        > You are not going to pay for ransomware with your credit card ugh.. did you misread my comment? i was talking about cash.
        _ph_ 7y ago
        How do you pay for ransomware with cash? Put it into an envelope and send it off to another continent to the address of the criminals? I explicitly talked about sending money over the internet.
        keymone 7y ago
        you pay ransom with cash. because cash has certain properties. which bitcoin also has. which is why bitcoin is being used as digital cash. which in itself isn't a problem and if it is - you need to fight against cash, there's orders of magnitude more illegal stuff being paid for using cash than using bitcoin.
        _ph_ 7y ago
        I was specifically talking about ransomware in all of my comments you answered to. You might disagree, but please don't put words into my mouth I didn't write. Also, while ransom is paid in cash, these kind of crimes are not very common because the police can intercept at the cash exchange. It is really the ability to send money over the internet but off any official channels, which enables ransomware. Also, like with any other commerce, performing illegal purchases gets much easier with the internet, in this case facilitated by cryptocurrencies.
        keymone 7y ago
        > You might disagree, but please don't put words into my mouth i don't disagree, i'm trying to help you understand that what (allegedly) makes bitcoin popular for ransomware and illegal transactions is a set of properties that are also shared with cash. either your argument is that those properties are evil and you're in favor of cashless society where big brother is always in control of all money flows - in which case that's the root of our disagreement and we can stop there. or you value those properties but you're worried about all the illegal activities enabled by them, in which case bitcoin should be way down on the list of your concerns, top spot being held by the almighty USD.
    - mirimir 7y ago
      People have wanted an online cash equivalent for decades. It's a privacy thing. "Illegal" means whatever authoritarian jerks want it to, so we can ignore that. Ransomware obviously uses Bitcoin because it's reliable, and can be anonymized. And people use Tor for child porn and "illegal" drugs because it's secure and ~anonymous. They're popular because they work. And in a way, they're canaries for decent privacy lovers.
mirimir 7y ago
I don't think that I did. No currency "has value". For dollars, it's the US government. Bitcoin has value for three main reasons: 1) it can be used to buy stuff online, and can be anonymized; 2) it's not controlled by governments; and 3) it's a popular speculative asset. The first two aren't about novelty. Sure, if something else comes along that does those things better, people will shift. But none of the existing alternatives has managed that yet. The third does have a huge novelty component. And personally, I wish that all the bloody speculators would just piss off. But whatever, I can live with them. And free money is cool too.

by _ph_ 7y ago

uoylj 7y ago

A secure global ledger does have value though. At least it does to lots of people.

_ph_ 7y ago
Yes, Bitcoin seems to be popular in the trade of illegal goods and for paying ransomware. Doesn't exactly explain why most other people invest so much into Bitcoin. And the security is very dubious, considering the track record of Bitcoin exchanges.
- keymone 7y ago
  sigh, how this is still an argument? try going a step further and ask yourself why is bitcoin "popular in the trade of illegal goods and for paying ransomware". hint: there's a thing that is even more "popular in the trade of illegal goods and for paying ransomware" - cash. hopefully it's enough of a nudge in the right direction.
  - _ph_ 7y ago
    Sorry, thats just a strawman. Bitcoin enables sending money over the internet off official channels. You are not going to pay for ransomware with your credit card.
    - keymone 7y ago
      > You are not going to pay for ransomware with your credit card ugh.. did you misread my comment? i was talking about cash.
      - _ph_ 7y ago
        How do you pay for ransomware with cash? Put it into an envelope and send it off to another continent to the address of the criminals? I explicitly talked about sending money over the internet.
        keymone 7y ago
        you pay ransom with cash. because cash has certain properties. which bitcoin also has. which is why bitcoin is being used as digital cash. which in itself isn't a problem and if it is - you need to fight against cash, there's orders of magnitude more illegal stuff being paid for using cash than using bitcoin.
        _ph_ 7y ago
        I was specifically talking about ransomware in all of my comments you answered to. You might disagree, but please don't put words into my mouth I didn't write. Also, while ransom is paid in cash, these kind of crimes are not very common because the police can intercept at the cash exchange. It is really the ability to send money over the internet but off any official channels, which enables ransomware. Also, like with any other commerce, performing illegal purchases gets much easier with the internet, in this case facilitated by cryptocurrencies.
        keymone 7y ago
        > You might disagree, but please don't put words into my mouth i don't disagree, i'm trying to help you understand that what (allegedly) makes bitcoin popular for ransomware and illegal transactions is a set of properties that are also shared with cash. either your argument is that those properties are evil and you're in favor of cashless society where big brother is always in control of all money flows - in which case that's the root of our disagreement and we can stop there. or you value those properties but you're worried about all the illegal activities enabled by them, in which case bitcoin should be way down on the list of your concerns, top spot being held by the almighty USD.
  - mirimir 7y ago
    People have wanted an online cash equivalent for decades. It's a privacy thing. "Illegal" means whatever authoritarian jerks want it to, so we can ignore that. Ransomware obviously uses Bitcoin because it's reliable, and can be anonymized. And people use Tor for child porn and "illegal" drugs because it's secure and ~anonymous. They're popular because they work. And in a way, they're canaries for decent privacy lovers.

mirimir 7y ago

I don't think that I did. No currency "has value". For dollars, it's the US government. Bitcoin has value for three main reasons: 1) it can be used to buy stuff online, and can be anonymized; 2) it's not controlled by governments; and 3) it's a popular speculative asset. The first two aren't about novelty. Sure, if something else comes along that does those things better, people will shift. But none of the existing alternatives has managed that yet. The third does have a huge novelty component. And personally, I wish that all the bloody speculators would just piss off. But whatever, I can live with them. And free money is cool too.