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You're going into a lot of mental gymnastics over this, which just shows how crucial APM is. There's quite simply a minimum APM required to micro, macro and han

You're going into a lot of mental gymnastics over this, which just shows how crucial APM is. There's quite simply a minimum APM required to micro, macro and handle multiple fronts at a sufficiently good level. And it's not 100 APM. And the more APM you have to spare, the more your possible decision space grows on tactical and strategic levels. Hell, the previous AlphaStar matches show what kind of ridiculous things can be done with 1000 APM. It's not just some magical number. Your armies become more effective the more APM you have.

tinco 7y ago
I'm saying DeepMind could be better at lower APM than a human could be. Which is cool because APM we see as a physical limitation, topping out at around 350 average iirc. If you go through a players 350 clicks, how many are good tactical decisions, how many are mediocre or bad ones and how many are just the player keeping tempo? We don't know how our attention span is limited and how that relates to tactical planning.
chongli 7y ago
I think the point of disagreement between you and the other commenters is a subtle equivocation over the meaning of APM, something I've found to occur not infrequently in discussions around a metric. You seem to be talking about an underlying, unknown parameter for which APM provides a crude estimator. When you use the term APM as a proxy for that hidden parameter, people will often mistake your position for claims about the raw number they see on screen, which does not perfectly correlate with the desired attribute. In the case of APM, there are two major sources of error that make it a less-than-ideal estimator: 1) Not all actions are counted by APM. Moving the camera, moving your eyes to look at the mini map/minerals/supply counts/unit health, moving the mouse without clicking anything, pressing hot keys for targetable actions without confirming a target; these are all things which are not reflected in APM. 2) Many redundant actions are recorded as APM. Ordering a unit to move to one location and then clicking again in the exact same spot is a big one. Same goes for repeatedly selecting and deselecting groups of units without issuing any commands. Given the above sources of error, it is not unreasonable to believe that a player with 40 APM can defeat a player with 400, it's just less likely. The problem with extending this discussion to an AI is that the software does not suffer from these limitations. We can measure (and in fact control) the true number of actions the system uses to play the game. Unless programmed incorrectly, an AI should not waste any actions at all, so its measured APM won't be any higher than necessary. This makes it difficult to compare to a human player's APM.
- jplayer01 7y ago
  > 1) Not all actions are counted by APM. Moving the camera, moving your eyes to look at the mini map/minerals/supply counts/unit health, moving the mouse without clicking anything, pressing hot keys for targetable actions without confirming a target; these are all things which are not reflected in APM. Not all actions need to be. > 2) Many redundant actions are recorded as APM. Ordering a unit to move to one location and then clicking again in the exact same spot is a big one. Same goes for repeatedly selecting and deselecting groups of units without issuing any commands. The assumption here is that there is an end-all be-all metric for APM. It isn't. Just look at the discussions around EPM vs APM to get a taste. Anybody who thinks about APM understands that it isn't a 100% accurate measurement, and it just doesn't add anything to the conversation when everybody realizes that APM isn't 100% accurate. Further, it's no accident that AlphaStar's APM has been limited, stemming from the kinds of advantages it provides in a game like SC2 where APM is a limited resource for every player such that it lays constraints on and is related to or is constrained by all kinds of things from attention to cognitive load to strategy to micro to macro. APM is itself a metric that's incredibly important to the game, not just a proxy. The fact that it's related to so many other parts of the game is just an indicator of how important it is. Also, it's a big jump to say that all of AlphaStar's actions are effective and not wasted. At most you can say that there's no spam, because there's no need to. Pros will spam clicks just to keep their hands warm and moving, something which an AI doesn't need to do.

tinco 7y ago

I'm saying DeepMind could be better at lower APM than a human could be. Which is cool because APM we see as a physical limitation, topping out at around 350 average iirc. If you go through a players 350 clicks, how many are good tactical decisions, how many are mediocre or bad ones and how many are just the player keeping tempo? We don't know how our attention span is limited and how that relates to tactical planning.

chongli 7y ago

I think the point of disagreement between you and the other commenters is a subtle equivocation over the meaning of APM, something I've found to occur not infrequently in discussions around a metric. You seem to be talking about an underlying, unknown parameter for which APM provides a crude estimator. When you use the term APM as a proxy for that hidden parameter, people will often mistake your position for claims about the raw number they see on screen, which does not perfectly correlate with the desired attribute. In the case of APM, there are two major sources of error that make it a less-than-ideal estimator: 1) Not all actions are counted by APM. Moving the camera, moving your eyes to look at the mini map/minerals/supply counts/unit health, moving the mouse without clicking anything, pressing hot keys for targetable actions without confirming a target; these are all things which are not reflected in APM. 2) Many redundant actions are recorded as APM. Ordering a unit to move to one location and then clicking again in the exact same spot is a big one. Same goes for repeatedly selecting and deselecting groups of units without issuing any commands. Given the above sources of error, it is not unreasonable to believe that a player with 40 APM can defeat a player with 400, it's just less likely. The problem with extending this discussion to an AI is that the software does not suffer from these limitations. We can measure (and in fact control) the true number of actions the system uses to play the game. Unless programmed incorrectly, an AI should not waste any actions at all, so its measured APM won't be any higher than necessary. This makes it difficult to compare to a human player's APM.

jplayer01 7y ago
> 1) Not all actions are counted by APM. Moving the camera, moving your eyes to look at the mini map/minerals/supply counts/unit health, moving the mouse without clicking anything, pressing hot keys for targetable actions without confirming a target; these are all things which are not reflected in APM. Not all actions need to be. > 2) Many redundant actions are recorded as APM. Ordering a unit to move to one location and then clicking again in the exact same spot is a big one. Same goes for repeatedly selecting and deselecting groups of units without issuing any commands. The assumption here is that there is an end-all be-all metric for APM. It isn't. Just look at the discussions around EPM vs APM to get a taste. Anybody who thinks about APM understands that it isn't a 100% accurate measurement, and it just doesn't add anything to the conversation when everybody realizes that APM isn't 100% accurate. Further, it's no accident that AlphaStar's APM has been limited, stemming from the kinds of advantages it provides in a game like SC2 where APM is a limited resource for every player such that it lays constraints on and is related to or is constrained by all kinds of things from attention to cognitive load to strategy to micro to macro. APM is itself a metric that's incredibly important to the game, not just a proxy. The fact that it's related to so many other parts of the game is just an indicator of how important it is. Also, it's a big jump to say that all of AlphaStar's actions are effective and not wasted. At most you can say that there's no spam, because there's no need to. Pros will spam clicks just to keep their hands warm and moving, something which an AI doesn't need to do.