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You -- and lots of pesky Bitcoin speculators -- are missing the point. Bitcoin is currency. If it weren't for speculation, Bitcoin exchange rates with state-bas

You -- and lots of pesky Bitcoin speculators -- are missing the point. Bitcoin is currency. If it weren't for speculation, Bitcoin exchange rates with state-based currencies would be relatively stable. There's some deflation by design, but not enough to matter, unless you hoard. Exchange rate volatility is problematic. My solution is mainly to have more Bitcoin than I'd ever use, unless its value crashed. That works for me because I accumulated most of it years ago, and I'm too paranoid to cash out. Otherwise, I'd need to distribute among multiple resources that were relatively stable, or didn't move together.

_ph_ 7y ago
I think you misunderstood me. I am making the point that Bitcoin has basically no value. Its only value comes from the fact that currently enough people think it has a value. Like the million dollar homepage. Once the novelty has worn off, it could drop to 0 value.
- uoylj 7y ago
  A secure global ledger does have value though. At least it does to lots of people.
  - _ph_ 7y ago
    Yes, Bitcoin seems to be popular in the trade of illegal goods and for paying ransomware. Doesn't exactly explain why most other people invest so much into Bitcoin. And the security is very dubious, considering the track record of Bitcoin exchanges.
    - keymone 7y ago
      sigh, how this is still an argument? try going a step further and ask yourself why is bitcoin "popular in the trade of illegal goods and for paying ransomware". hint: there's a thing that is even more "popular in the trade of illegal goods and for paying ransomware" - cash. hopefully it's enough of a nudge in the right direction.
      - _ph_ 7y ago
        Sorry, thats just a strawman. Bitcoin enables sending money over the internet off official channels. You are not going to pay for ransomware with your credit card.
        keymone 7y ago
        > You are not going to pay for ransomware with your credit card ugh.. did you misread my comment? i was talking about cash.
        _ph_ 7y ago
        How do you pay for ransomware with cash? Put it into an envelope and send it off to another continent to the address of the criminals? I explicitly talked about sending money over the internet.
        keymone 7y ago
        you pay ransom with cash. because cash has certain properties. which bitcoin also has. which is why bitcoin is being used as digital cash. which in itself isn't a problem and if it is - you need to fight against cash, there's orders of magnitude more illegal stuff being paid for using cash than using bitcoin.
        _ph_ 7y ago
        I was specifically talking about ransomware in all of my comments you answered to. You might disagree, but please don't put words into my mouth I didn't write. Also, while ransom is paid in cash, these kind of crimes are not very common because the police can intercept at the cash exchange. It is really the ability to send money over the internet but off any official channels, which enables ransomware. Also, like with any other commerce, performing illegal purchases gets much easier with the internet, in this case facilitated by cryptocurrencies.
        7y ago
- mirimir 7y ago
  I don't think that I did. No currency "has value". For dollars, it's the US government. Bitcoin has value for three main reasons: 1) it can be used to buy stuff online, and can be anonymized; 2) it's not controlled by governments; and 3) it's a popular speculative asset. The first two aren't about novelty. Sure, if something else comes along that does those things better, people will shift. But none of the existing alternatives has managed that yet. The third does have a huge novelty component. And personally, I wish that all the bloody speculators would just piss off. But whatever, I can live with them. And free money is cool too.
navigatesol 7y ago
>but not enough to matter, unless you hoard. >My solution is mainly to have more Bitcoin than I'd ever use In other words, you're hoarding.
- mirimir 7y ago
  Yes, I suppose that I am. But not mainly in a speculative way. Fundamentally, there's no safe way to move enough to matter without raising flags. As in, "where did that money come from"? I really don't want to go there.
  - mchristen 7y ago
    I'm not sure what you mean by safe, but all you gotta do is pay your taxes and you can do whatever you want with that money.
    - mirimir 7y ago
      I don't care about the taxes so much. It's the linkage to my online personas that I care about. And I just don't want to deal with questions that might touch on them. Because I know a little about interrogation, and I know the risks of lying to investigators. And the freakiest thing is that I have no idea what sorts of investigations some of my personas might be part of. I'm a decent guy, myself. And much of my Bitcoin came from writing, mostly for IVPN. But I've also done some consulting with other anonymous cowards. I'm adamant about not wanting to know anything about what clients are doing. But I gotta wonder, sometimes. So anyway, keeping online and meatspace finances totally separate is just part of my OPSEC.

_ph_ 7y ago

I think you misunderstood me. I am making the point that Bitcoin has basically no value. Its only value comes from the fact that currently enough people think it has a value. Like the million dollar homepage. Once the novelty has worn off, it could drop to 0 value.

uoylj 7y ago
A secure global ledger does have value though. At least it does to lots of people.
- _ph_ 7y ago
  Yes, Bitcoin seems to be popular in the trade of illegal goods and for paying ransomware. Doesn't exactly explain why most other people invest so much into Bitcoin. And the security is very dubious, considering the track record of Bitcoin exchanges.
  - keymone 7y ago
    sigh, how this is still an argument? try going a step further and ask yourself why is bitcoin "popular in the trade of illegal goods and for paying ransomware". hint: there's a thing that is even more "popular in the trade of illegal goods and for paying ransomware" - cash. hopefully it's enough of a nudge in the right direction.
    - _ph_ 7y ago
      Sorry, thats just a strawman. Bitcoin enables sending money over the internet off official channels. You are not going to pay for ransomware with your credit card.
      - keymone 7y ago
        > You are not going to pay for ransomware with your credit card ugh.. did you misread my comment? i was talking about cash.
        _ph_ 7y ago
        How do you pay for ransomware with cash? Put it into an envelope and send it off to another continent to the address of the criminals? I explicitly talked about sending money over the internet.
        keymone 7y ago
        you pay ransom with cash. because cash has certain properties. which bitcoin also has. which is why bitcoin is being used as digital cash. which in itself isn't a problem and if it is - you need to fight against cash, there's orders of magnitude more illegal stuff being paid for using cash than using bitcoin.
        _ph_ 7y ago
        I was specifically talking about ransomware in all of my comments you answered to. You might disagree, but please don't put words into my mouth I didn't write. Also, while ransom is paid in cash, these kind of crimes are not very common because the police can intercept at the cash exchange. It is really the ability to send money over the internet but off any official channels, which enables ransomware. Also, like with any other commerce, performing illegal purchases gets much easier with the internet, in this case facilitated by cryptocurrencies.
        7y ago
mirimir 7y ago
I don't think that I did. No currency "has value". For dollars, it's the US government. Bitcoin has value for three main reasons: 1) it can be used to buy stuff online, and can be anonymized; 2) it's not controlled by governments; and 3) it's a popular speculative asset. The first two aren't about novelty. Sure, if something else comes along that does those things better, people will shift. But none of the existing alternatives has managed that yet. The third does have a huge novelty component. And personally, I wish that all the bloody speculators would just piss off. But whatever, I can live with them. And free money is cool too.

navigatesol 7y ago

>but not enough to matter, unless you hoard. >My solution is mainly to have more Bitcoin than I'd ever use In other words, you're hoarding.

mirimir 7y ago
Yes, I suppose that I am. But not mainly in a speculative way. Fundamentally, there's no safe way to move enough to matter without raising flags. As in, "where did that money come from"? I really don't want to go there.
- mchristen 7y ago
  I'm not sure what you mean by safe, but all you gotta do is pay your taxes and you can do whatever you want with that money.
  - mirimir 7y ago
    I don't care about the taxes so much. It's the linkage to my online personas that I care about. And I just don't want to deal with questions that might touch on them. Because I know a little about interrogation, and I know the risks of lying to investigators. And the freakiest thing is that I have no idea what sorts of investigations some of my personas might be part of. I'm a decent guy, myself. And much of my Bitcoin came from writing, mostly for IVPN. But I've also done some consulting with other anonymous cowards. I'm adamant about not wanting to know anything about what clients are doing. But I gotta wonder, sometimes. So anyway, keeping online and meatspace finances totally separate is just part of my OPSEC.