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Huh? Why is it ok for Apple or anyone to do silent installs on my computer? As a customer, why am I getting this information from YC/Techcrunch and not Apple?

Huh? Why is it ok for Apple or anyone to do silent installs on my computer? As a customer, why am I getting this information from YC/Techcrunch and not Apple? What else have they pushed like this? Is there a transparent log? Can we verify if their track record is clean? How many times have they silently broken and fixed their own things? How do we know they won't abuse this? Isn't this the same dark pattern that we criticized zoom for? Did I consent to Apple doing silent editorial changes to my system? For having exercised this editorial privilege, will Apple take accountability for every thing that is done by every app on my computer? It seems like we are being slow-boiled into accepting outrageous things as normal.

nhf 7y ago
Apple has done silent updates for Gatekeeper, the macOS code signing/file quarantine/light anti-malware framework ever since Yosemite. These are done silently unless you explicitly disable all updates and only show up as a visible item when you manually list updates using the softwareupdate command line tool, I think. AFAIK these are just config files and hash databases or similar. You can view the history of these installs by running softwareupdate --history | grep -E "^MRT|^Gatekeeper" I see an average of 2 updates per month. FWIW Apple can also mark something as visible (but install automatically) with a certain config file key. A blog mentions this as being done for patching the NTP bug from a while back: > Marking these updates as ConfigData cues the App Store to not display these as available software updates in the App Store’s list of software updates. These updates are meant to be under Apple’s control and to be as invisible as possible. > Meanwhile, an automatically installed software update like OS X NTP Security Update 1.0 shows up as a normal software update, but has extra keys in its catalog listing to mark it as a critical update whose automatic installation is set to occur as soon as possible. https://derflounder.wordpress.com/2014/12/27/managing-automatic-installation-of-configdata-and-security-software-updates-on-yosemite/ https://derflounder.wordpress.com/2014/12/27/managing-automa...
- saagarjha 7y ago
  > These are done silently unless you explicitly disable all updates You can turn off silent security updates from System Preferences without affecting software update checks for other components.
  - thenickdude 7y ago
    It seems that unticking this checkbox causes those updates to be disabled completely (and not just converted into visible updates in the Software Updater that you have the option of installing, like I thought it would). I had that option unticked and my last "MRTConfigData" update was a year out of date. The option is called "Automatically: Install system data files and security updates" in the Software Update advanced settings.
kccqzy 7y ago
> What else have they pushed like this? Is there a transparent log? Yes. sh-3.2# softwareupdate --history Display Name Version Date ------------ ------- ---- Safari Technology Preview 87 07/10/2019, 21:40:18 Gatekeeper Configuration Data 171 07/03/2019, 14:00:23 Safari Technology Preview 86 07/02/2019, 01:27:12 MRTConfigData 1.42 06/29/2019, 11:52:13 Gatekeeper Configuration Data 170 06/29/2019, 11:50:33 Safari Technology Preview 85 06/13/2019, 14:48:10 Safari Technology Preview 84 06/10/2019, 00:51:57 TCC Configuration Data 17.0 06/05/2019, 07:04:21 Gatekeeper Configuration Data 167 06/04/2019, 04:17:26 Safari Technology Preview 83 05/30/2019, 19:48:10 iTunes Device Support Update 05/15/2019, 16:27:15 Safari Technology Preview 82 05/15/2019, 16:27:15 macOS 10.14.5 Update 05/15/2019, 16:27:15 Gatekeeper Configuration Data 166 05/14/2019, 02:36:07 Safari Technology Preview 81 05/03/2019, 00:47:53 MRTConfigData 1.41 05/02/2019, 06:36:59 XProtectPlistConfigData 2103 05/02/2019, 06:36:37 And the list goes all the way back to when I bought my Mac. Among the list above, only the Safari Technology Preview updates and the macOS 10.14.5 update are initiated manually, as far as I can remember.
M4v3R 7y ago
> Isn't this the same dark pattern that we criticized zoom for? Did I consent to Apple doing silent editorial changes to my system? Because as opposed to what Zoom did, this is a feature that you can turn off if you want in "Updates" preference pane.
frereubu 7y ago
I don't want to come across as confrontational, but I find this kind of response exhausting. I do not want control of everything on my computer. I don't have time or expertise to decide on whether to accept each and every security update, particularly ones that involve a web server which was installed by stealth and which isn't removed when the app is uninstalled. I want to outsource these kinds of decisions to people more qualified than me, and if I don't have to pay extra for those people (beyond the extra expense of buying Apple products) all the better. If you want complete control over your computer you have the choice of getting yourself a PC with some flavour of *nix, and combing through each update as it comes. I really don't like the future of Apple that you seem to want. Apple has made missteps, sure - like that idiotic U2 album - but I actively want things like this to happen, and I imagine the vast majority of Apple users do too (if they actually ever think about it).
- ilikehurdles 7y ago
  Do you recognize any middle ground between the current state and your extreme scenario of poring through every update?
  - frereubu 7y ago
    Honestly, for my purposes (I'm technical director of a digital media agency), not really. I install updates automatically (apart from first-version releases of macOS), and appreciate the gatekeeping aspect of the App Store for everyday software. When it comes to public-facing servers that we run it's a different matter of course, but then I'm performing (and delegating) the same task that I want Apple to perform for my MacBook Pro.
- xeromal 7y ago
  It's the same response like the one when dropbox released. "It's trivial to spin up a server, set up a file sync, blah blah blah, why do we need dropbox". I'm the same as you. The whineyness exhausts me. Let the market decide. I just want shit to work.

nhf 7y ago

Apple has done silent updates for Gatekeeper, the macOS code signing/file quarantine/light anti-malware framework ever since Yosemite. These are done silently unless you explicitly disable all updates and only show up as a visible item when you manually list updates using the softwareupdate command line tool, I think. AFAIK these are just config files and hash databases or similar. You can view the history of these installs by running softwareupdate --history | grep -E "^MRT|^Gatekeeper" I see an average of 2 updates per month. FWIW Apple can also mark something as visible (but install automatically) with a certain config file key. A blog mentions this as being done for patching the NTP bug from a while back: > Marking these updates as ConfigData cues the App Store to not display these as available software updates in the App Store’s list of software updates. These updates are meant to be under Apple’s control and to be as invisible as possible. > Meanwhile, an automatically installed software update like OS X NTP Security Update 1.0 shows up as a normal software update, but has extra keys in its catalog listing to mark it as a critical update whose automatic installation is set to occur as soon as possible. https://derflounder.wordpress.com/2014/12/27/managing-automatic-installation-of-configdata-and-security-software-updates-on-yosemite/ https://derflounder.wordpress.com/2014/12/27/managing-automa...

saagarjha 7y ago
> These are done silently unless you explicitly disable all updates You can turn off silent security updates from System Preferences without affecting software update checks for other components.
- thenickdude 7y ago
  It seems that unticking this checkbox causes those updates to be disabled completely (and not just converted into visible updates in the Software Updater that you have the option of installing, like I thought it would). I had that option unticked and my last "MRTConfigData" update was a year out of date. The option is called "Automatically: Install system data files and security updates" in the Software Update advanced settings.

kccqzy 7y ago

> What else have they pushed like this? Is there a transparent log? Yes. sh-3.2# softwareupdate --history Display Name Version Date ------------ ------- ---- Safari Technology Preview 87 07/10/2019, 21:40:18 Gatekeeper Configuration Data 171 07/03/2019, 14:00:23 Safari Technology Preview 86 07/02/2019, 01:27:12 MRTConfigData 1.42 06/29/2019, 11:52:13 Gatekeeper Configuration Data 170 06/29/2019, 11:50:33 Safari Technology Preview 85 06/13/2019, 14:48:10 Safari Technology Preview 84 06/10/2019, 00:51:57 TCC Configuration Data 17.0 06/05/2019, 07:04:21 Gatekeeper Configuration Data 167 06/04/2019, 04:17:26 Safari Technology Preview 83 05/30/2019, 19:48:10 iTunes Device Support Update 05/15/2019, 16:27:15 Safari Technology Preview 82 05/15/2019, 16:27:15 macOS 10.14.5 Update 05/15/2019, 16:27:15 Gatekeeper Configuration Data 166 05/14/2019, 02:36:07 Safari Technology Preview 81 05/03/2019, 00:47:53 MRTConfigData 1.41 05/02/2019, 06:36:59 XProtectPlistConfigData 2103 05/02/2019, 06:36:37 And the list goes all the way back to when I bought my Mac. Among the list above, only the Safari Technology Preview updates and the macOS 10.14.5 update are initiated manually, as far as I can remember.

M4v3R 7y ago

> Isn't this the same dark pattern that we criticized zoom for? Did I consent to Apple doing silent editorial changes to my system? Because as opposed to what Zoom did, this is a feature that you can turn off if you want in "Updates" preference pane.

frereubu 7y ago

I don't want to come across as confrontational, but I find this kind of response exhausting. I do not want control of everything on my computer. I don't have time or expertise to decide on whether to accept each and every security update, particularly ones that involve a web server which was installed by stealth and which isn't removed when the app is uninstalled. I want to outsource these kinds of decisions to people more qualified than me, and if I don't have to pay extra for those people (beyond the extra expense of buying Apple products) all the better. If you want complete control over your computer you have the choice of getting yourself a PC with some flavour of *nix, and combing through each update as it comes. I really don't like the future of Apple that you seem to want. Apple has made missteps, sure - like that idiotic U2 album - but I actively want things like this to happen, and I imagine the vast majority of Apple users do too (if they actually ever think about it).

ilikehurdles 7y ago
Do you recognize any middle ground between the current state and your extreme scenario of poring through every update?
- frereubu 7y ago
  Honestly, for my purposes (I'm technical director of a digital media agency), not really. I install updates automatically (apart from first-version releases of macOS), and appreciate the gatekeeping aspect of the App Store for everyday software. When it comes to public-facing servers that we run it's a different matter of course, but then I'm performing (and delegating) the same task that I want Apple to perform for my MacBook Pro.
xeromal 7y ago
It's the same response like the one when dropbox released. "It's trivial to spin up a server, set up a file sync, blah blah blah, why do we need dropbox". I'm the same as you. The whineyness exhausts me. Let the market decide. I just want shit to work.