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It bothers me that people weren't more upset about this part.
by rrix2 7y ago
It bothers me that people weren't more upset about this part.
- sjwright 7y agoI’m sure Apple is as upset as anyone else. It effectively breaks their sandbox model so they’ll probably be working hard on a way to plug that hole gracefully.
- xoa 7y ago>It effectively breaks their sandbox model The sandbox only applies to software devs that want to use it or those that wish to sell through the Mac App Store. I don't think Zoom is in the MAS at all (I don't see it in a quick search anyway), and a standalone installer is free to do whatever it wants and can convince users to go along with (up to and including, in principle, bypassing SIP though since that significantly raises the effort bar I've only ever seen niche stuff request it). And it's completely legitimate to want to run a server on your system too, there is no hole. Zoom simply acted as malware, taking actions without user permission.
- unsatchmo 7y agoSIP cannot be disabled by anything running in the current boot session. Once the root volume is mounted, the SIP flags are set in the mountpoint. The root volume obviously cannot be unmounted while it is booted from.
- pjmlp 7y agoNot after Catalina. Future versions of macOS will require signed software (notarized as per Apple terminology), even outside of the store. What is new in security at WWDC.
- philo23 7y agoSigned is not the same to Sandboxed on macOS, afaik.
- pjmlp 7y agoWatch the security talk. macOS is on the path to adopt iOS permissions model and long term roadmap is to apply the sandbox to everything, with the option to explicitly disable it on per-case basis. A path similar to how Windows 10 is now converging the Win32 and UWP sanbox models, or how ChromeOS sandboxes GNU/Linux processes.
- saagarjha 7y agoIt's not, but sandboxing requires code signing.
- asveikau 7y agoI don't fully understand the difference. But signed is different from notarized. Notarized means you uploaded the binary to Apple. Previously, you can sign without doing that. I haven't looked enough to understand what is gained by notary. Does Apple want to search your binary for maliciousness or rulebreaking (potentially even at a later date) so that it might revoke the notarization/signature?
- pjmlp 7y agoIn order to avoid repeating myself, from WWDC 2019: "Advances in macOS Security" https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2019/701/ https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2019/701/ "All About Notarization" https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2019/703 https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2019/703
- asveikau 7y agoThanks. Some of this stuff seems a tad disingenuous. Like preventing debugging. The debugger APIs on Mac already pop up a password prompt, limiting the usability in malware (and actual use, like trying to debug over ssh). Meanwhile, a culture of producing separate binaries for debug and for end users (debug builds lacking optimization, allowing additional permissions) is in my experience a great way to fail to reproduce legit customer-facing bugs during development and have greater difficulty diagnosing them when they occur on a real live user machine.
- saagarjha 7y agoAs far as I understand, notarization is intended to catch malware before it can be distributed. The traditional signing mechanism can protect users against malicious software because Apple can pull certificates used to sign malware.
- sschueller 7y agoThat will be the Mac books death. Many open source projects will not participate in this. If this kills brew you will also loose a lot of devs.
- pjmlp 7y agoiPhone and iPad don't seem to have suffered from lack of open source projects. Neither do game consoles or the large population using Windows based systems. I never cared for brew on the occasional moments I get to use Apple computers, XCode and default tooling is more than enough. Which is like what the large majority of developers targeting Apple devices actually care about.
- rleigh 7y agoThe MacBook is a general purpose computing platform. The iPhone and iPad are not. Locking down the Mac will make it unusable for many, many people. It will indeed be the death of the platform, as most devs abandon it entirely.
- pjmlp 7y agoThe large majority of devs that buy Macs aren't UNIX FOSS devs, rather devs that care about Apple platform.
- saagarjha 7y agoNotarized≠signed. I suggest you watch the videos that you've posted; they go into detail about the changes in macOS Catalina and when they apply.
- pjmlp 7y agoOn the go now, I will post the video minutes and slide pages afterwards.
- mortenjorck 7y agoI would not be surprised at all if this episode has some concrete ramifications in 10.15. It could take the shape of something akin to iOS’ location permissions for applications that want to run a server, or even a first-party framework for accomplishing the thing Zoom was trying to do, but it’s probably safe to say what Zoom was doing won’t be possible next year.
- scarface74 7y agoThere is no real sandbox model on Macs if you don’t go through the Mac App Store, only code signing to detect that the app hasn’t been tampered with and to validate the author.
- pjmlp 7y agoUntil Catalina, which will more aggressively use permissions and require all software to be notarized.
- scarface74 7y agoNeither statement is true. There is still the same control-click to open non signed software and there is still no aggressive permission model outside of the App Store.
- sudhirj 7y agoThere is, but even the control click will only allow you to open signed software. Unless you build the software yourself (I'm not sure how homebrew still works) you cannot run it if it's not been notarized by Apple. Firefox was broken on Catalina for a while, even though the main app was notarized. Some internal binary wasn't notarized, and no amount of control clicking would get Firefox to work until Mozilla notarized everything in the build.
- scarface74 7y agoFor users who know what they are doing: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/unsigned-apps-catalyst-app-signing.2183873/ https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/unsigned-apps-catalyst-... sudo spctl --master-disable
- pjmlp 7y agoWhich are a very tiny percentage of typical Mac users.