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>The real issue there is the fact that macOS doesn't provide a standarized way to completely uninstall an app. reply And Windows does? Uninstallers are complet

>The real issue there is the fact that macOS doesn't provide a standarized way to completely uninstall an app. reply And Windows does? Uninstallers are completely at the behest of application developers. No consumer OS but iOS actually provides any sort of true app level sandboxing.

pkulak 7y ago
Flatpak, Appimage, etc. Zoom is even available in Flathub, and that's how I use it.
javagram 7y ago
> And Windows does? Control Panel “add and remove programs” usually works? There’s no equivalent on Mac. Yes, dragging the app to the trash is a thing but that leaves behind content in ~/Library/caches, ~/Library/Application Support, and ~/Library/Preferences . It’s been somewhat of an issue with Mac ever since they first put a hard drive on the original ones back in the 80s... Edit: I literally cleared several GB of junk out of my application support folder left behind by just one app today, so it’s fresh on my mind. OmniDiskSweeper is great for finding this stuff.
- RussianCow 7y ago
  The point is, all of those files are generally still left behind on Windows as well. Uninstalling a program in Windows is roughly equivalent to dragging it into the trash in macOS.
  - ComputerGuru 7y ago
    > all of those files are generally still left behind on Windows as well. Citation needed. That was the case in the 90s, these days most apps (device drivers aside) uninstall fairly cleanly with only settings/configurations stored in the registry still resident afterwards. Startup programs remaining after an uninstall is straight-up a bug.
    - buzzerbetrayed 7y ago
      > these days most apps (device drivers aside) uninstall fairly cleanly Citation needed.
      - useerup 7y ago
        Windows installers are declarative and data-driven. An installer script does not simply use the file copy operations a usual app would use during runtime. Instead an installer is driven by a number of "database" tables that specify the installer actions in a declarative way. There are several benefits to this approach. The declarative actions are reversible and the uninstall actions can thus be inferred automatically. This removes the burden on install authors to create a script to reverse the install operations. This includes registering services/daemons (will unregister on uninstall), registering protocol handlers, filetype/program associations, desktop shortcuts etc. The declarative approach also allows the installer to roll back in case of an error during installation. This even includes "undeleting" files that were deleted. (https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/msi/rollback-installation https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/msi/rollback-...) The author of the install script can (non-Store installers) escape and execute a specific program during the install process. This is rarely needed, though. So the default is that the uninstaller will uninstall by completely reversing the install actions. https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/msi/windows-installer-portal https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/msi/windows-i...
  - pishpash 7y ago
    No, dragging an app from "Applications/" into Trash is equivalent to dragging a program folder from "Program Files\" into Recycle Bin. Actually that's exactly what it is.
- etbebl 7y ago
  Doesn't "Add and Remove Programs" just run whatever custom Uninstaller came bundled with the program? Is there anything it can do with programs that don't come with an uninstaller?
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    Yes: the annoying ones open up iexplorer.exe and ask you to fill out a survey of why you're uninstalling them.
- oneplane 7y ago
  Have you checked ProgramData, Local, and Roaming recently? Or your registry? Also, Add/Remove only works if the program adds itself there. And remove only works if the program added an uninstaller. Also, even then, it still leaves crap behind.
  - pishpash 7y ago
    At least there is a convention to have an uninstaller. If you create the installer through conventional toolboxes the uninstaller comes for free. That's how most Windows programs have both.
    - oneplane 7y ago
      macOS has the same convention. Conventional toolboxes are mostly not-Windows and not-Microsoft toolboxes, indicating that even if it's a convention, it'a apparently not a windows-native convention.
- sigzero 7y ago
  "add and remove programs" is still relying on the application developer to get it right. I've seen plenty of apps leave behind crap.
- scarface74 7y ago
  Control Panel “add and remove programs” usually works? All that does is launch the app’s uninstall process. The app is free to leave whatever crap it wants to on your system.
  - javagram 7y ago
    OK but on Mac, dragging the app to the trash doesn’t launch an uninstall process, so it will always leave the crap behind.
    - scarface74 7y ago
      Your app is suppose to be self contained....
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - jtbayly 7y ago
        Then what in the world is the huge Application Support folder for? And why is it filled with stuff from Apple programs?
- woah 7y ago
  Why do they put that stuff in there instead of keeping it in the .app folder?
- arthurfm 7y ago
  > OmniDiskSweeper is great for finding this stuff. iTrash [1] is also worth mentioning. It uses the Levenshtein distance algorithm [2] to find all of the junk related to an app. [1] http://www.osxbytes.com http://www.osxbytes.com [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levenshtein_distance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levenshtein_distance
  - soheilpro 7y ago
    I've been using AppCleaner [1] for years and it's awesome. And it's free. https://freemacsoft.net/appcleaner/ https://freemacsoft.net/appcleaner/
    - jonnytran 7y ago
      That's a cool little app. But at some point, I became very wary of running free, closed-source binaries from the Internet. What do you think about this one?
jhasse 7y ago
> No consumer OS but iOS actually provides any sort of true app level sandboxing. Android does, too.

pkulak 7y ago

Flatpak, Appimage, etc. Zoom is even available in Flathub, and that's how I use it.

javagram 7y ago

> And Windows does? Control Panel “add and remove programs” usually works? There’s no equivalent on Mac. Yes, dragging the app to the trash is a thing but that leaves behind content in ~/Library/caches, ~/Library/Application Support, and ~/Library/Preferences . It’s been somewhat of an issue with Mac ever since they first put a hard drive on the original ones back in the 80s... Edit: I literally cleared several GB of junk out of my application support folder left behind by just one app today, so it’s fresh on my mind. OmniDiskSweeper is great for finding this stuff.

RussianCow 7y ago
The point is, all of those files are generally still left behind on Windows as well. Uninstalling a program in Windows is roughly equivalent to dragging it into the trash in macOS.
- ComputerGuru 7y ago
  > all of those files are generally still left behind on Windows as well. Citation needed. That was the case in the 90s, these days most apps (device drivers aside) uninstall fairly cleanly with only settings/configurations stored in the registry still resident afterwards. Startup programs remaining after an uninstall is straight-up a bug.
  - buzzerbetrayed 7y ago
    > these days most apps (device drivers aside) uninstall fairly cleanly Citation needed.
    - useerup 7y ago
      Windows installers are declarative and data-driven. An installer script does not simply use the file copy operations a usual app would use during runtime. Instead an installer is driven by a number of "database" tables that specify the installer actions in a declarative way. There are several benefits to this approach. The declarative actions are reversible and the uninstall actions can thus be inferred automatically. This removes the burden on install authors to create a script to reverse the install operations. This includes registering services/daemons (will unregister on uninstall), registering protocol handlers, filetype/program associations, desktop shortcuts etc. The declarative approach also allows the installer to roll back in case of an error during installation. This even includes "undeleting" files that were deleted. (https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/msi/rollback-installation https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/msi/rollback-...) The author of the install script can (non-Store installers) escape and execute a specific program during the install process. This is rarely needed, though. So the default is that the uninstaller will uninstall by completely reversing the install actions. https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/msi/windows-installer-portal https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/msi/windows-i...
- pishpash 7y ago
  No, dragging an app from "Applications/" into Trash is equivalent to dragging a program folder from "Program Files\" into Recycle Bin. Actually that's exactly what it is.
etbebl 7y ago
Doesn't "Add and Remove Programs" just run whatever custom Uninstaller came bundled with the program? Is there anything it can do with programs that don't come with an uninstaller?
- saagarjha 7y ago
  Yes: the annoying ones open up iexplorer.exe and ask you to fill out a survey of why you're uninstalling them.
oneplane 7y ago
Have you checked ProgramData, Local, and Roaming recently? Or your registry? Also, Add/Remove only works if the program adds itself there. And remove only works if the program added an uninstaller. Also, even then, it still leaves crap behind.
- pishpash 7y ago
  At least there is a convention to have an uninstaller. If you create the installer through conventional toolboxes the uninstaller comes for free. That's how most Windows programs have both.
  - oneplane 7y ago
    macOS has the same convention. Conventional toolboxes are mostly not-Windows and not-Microsoft toolboxes, indicating that even if it's a convention, it'a apparently not a windows-native convention.
sigzero 7y ago
"add and remove programs" is still relying on the application developer to get it right. I've seen plenty of apps leave behind crap.
scarface74 7y ago
Control Panel “add and remove programs” usually works? All that does is launch the app’s uninstall process. The app is free to leave whatever crap it wants to on your system.
- javagram 7y ago
  OK but on Mac, dragging the app to the trash doesn’t launch an uninstall process, so it will always leave the crap behind.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    Your app is suppose to be self contained....
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - jtbayly 7y ago
      Then what in the world is the huge Application Support folder for? And why is it filled with stuff from Apple programs?
woah 7y ago
Why do they put that stuff in there instead of keeping it in the .app folder?
arthurfm 7y ago
> OmniDiskSweeper is great for finding this stuff. iTrash [1] is also worth mentioning. It uses the Levenshtein distance algorithm [2] to find all of the junk related to an app. [1] http://www.osxbytes.com http://www.osxbytes.com [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levenshtein_distance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levenshtein_distance
- soheilpro 7y ago
  I've been using AppCleaner [1] for years and it's awesome. And it's free. https://freemacsoft.net/appcleaner/ https://freemacsoft.net/appcleaner/
  - jonnytran 7y ago
    That's a cool little app. But at some point, I became very wary of running free, closed-source binaries from the Internet. What do you think about this one?

jhasse 7y ago

> No consumer OS but iOS actually provides any sort of true app level sandboxing. Android does, too.