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As the objector above, I feel the need to defend myself despite the lack of an attack :) I think you are correct. There will always be those people. I hope I

As the objector above, I feel the need to defend myself despite the lack of an attack :) I think you are correct. There will always be those people. I hope I don't fall among them - I raise the distinction about being "like" a human not because I think it's makes a good/bad qualitative difference, but because I'm hoping to avoid such comparisons. To me, far from proving it is "good" or "bad" at the game, AlphaStar is interesting for the behaviors it uncovers that are useful to humans. (example: AlphaStar overloaded workers - a strategy that had been discarded by almost all pro years before, and is now enjoying a reevaluation as a result). Paying attention to how the I/O is different matters to such elements, even if it is pointless in the comparison of "true intelligence". FWIW, when it comes to AI I have a more Minsky-view of things (in my limited understanding) and think that we're comparing apples and oranges without any awareness that its all fruit - we only KNOW apples. I think AlphaStar already has a better understanding of RTS than I do (low bar), even if we ignored the differences. That, however, isn't terribly exciting. AlphaStar showing us new tricks we can use - THAT'S interesting. (And now I want a segmented apple, dangit)

baddox 7y ago
I think philosophically the idea of humans competing with computers comes down to balancing two sometimes opposing things: A) which types of skills are interesting to test, and B) which types of skills are inherently interesting for humans to have. For A, this comes up a lot in discussions about video game design and balance. Do we really want to be testing how good players are at detecting cloaked units or exactly counting groups of units in battles? I tend to think those aren't super interesting strategically, tactically, or mechanically. For B, there's a reason that human competitive weightlifting or sprinting is still interesting, even though everyone knows that machines could trivially win those competitions. Of course, those aren't really tasks that are considered primarily measures of intelligence (although, see Moravec's paradox). It's damn cool to see the limits of human ability stretched. Of course, questions about expensive gear, performance-enhancing drugs, and even prosthetics and cybernetics can already challenge our philosophy of what makes human competition "fair." We inherently want to test the inequalities of humans, both we're only interested in certain inequalities. Generally, we're interested in who can lift the most weight, not in who could take the most growth hormones without dying.

baddox 7y ago

I think philosophically the idea of humans competing with computers comes down to balancing two sometimes opposing things: A) which types of skills are interesting to test, and B) which types of skills are inherently interesting for humans to have. For A, this comes up a lot in discussions about video game design and balance. Do we really want to be testing how good players are at detecting cloaked units or exactly counting groups of units in battles? I tend to think those aren't super interesting strategically, tactically, or mechanically. For B, there's a reason that human competitive weightlifting or sprinting is still interesting, even though everyone knows that machines could trivially win those competitions. Of course, those aren't really tasks that are considered primarily measures of intelligence (although, see Moravec's paradox). It's damn cool to see the limits of human ability stretched. Of course, questions about expensive gear, performance-enhancing drugs, and even prosthetics and cybernetics can already challenge our philosophy of what makes human competition "fair." We inherently want to test the inequalities of humans, both we're only interested in certain inequalities. Generally, we're interested in who can lift the most weight, not in who could take the most growth hormones without dying.