11 ms·

I don't think something like this would be that successful in the USA - it's not lack of parking that keeps most people from riding, it's lack of protected bike

I don't think something like this would be that successful in the USA - it's not lack of parking that keeps most people from riding, it's lack of protected bike lanes (or other "safe" routes), and lack of cultural acceptance of biking. Plus, open, street parking isn't that safe in a lot of cities, if I could ask for some specific parking infrastructure, I'd ask for lockable bike lockers... though I'd rather see bike lanes and other infrastructure that helps me get to work safely.

dancek 7y ago
Is the problem with open parking stealing bikes, stealing parts or breaking bikes? The obvious safety strategy is to have a bike of lesser value with better locks than what's available nearby. But I also ponder what it would be like to own a really valuable bike. Do people steal handlebars or something, because that would make sense to me? Or is vandalism the bigger issue?
- lazyasciiart 7y ago
  People steal wheels, handlebars, bells, lights, bike racks and seats.
  - 8ytecoder 7y ago
    And break seatposts when they are angry they couldn’t steal anything. I had a not too fancy bike that uses Pinhead locks to secure every removable component. And a sturdy U lock. There were multiple attempts to steal various components including an angry thief breaking the seat post for no good reason - the saddle is worthless. Only finally to be stolen from a secure parking garage using an electric saw in full view of the CCTV camera. Police did nothing - not that I expected them to - enough other crimes for them to deal with. Insurance paid for it. I used it to buy a nicer bike that I only ride on weekends. I’m back to taking public transit and supplanting that with bike share and walking. One of the attempts included a bike next to me that was stolen from a really popular tourist area with a cafe seating opposite the rack. When I see the way bikes are parked in Amsterdam it makes me jealous. I want to move there just for that freedom. I enjoy biking. I have heard London is worse. Solutions are emerging. There’s a crowdfunded tracker that claims to solve the radio communication problem from inside a metal body. If true, it can track the bike with a tracker located inside the frame.
    - belorn 7y ago
      What I don't get is why the same thieves do not steal the wheels, head lights and other parts of parked cars. Seems like it would be more profitable.
      - usrusr 7y ago
        The ratio between profit and police attention would be terrible for the "innovator". But it happens nonetheless, just like roof tile theft, wire theft and so on.
      - lazyasciiart 7y ago
        Cars tend to require tools by default, but a lot of bike parts can be removed just with your hands. They’re also a lot lighter and smaller, so they’re easier to carry and hide. To take the wheels off a car, for instance, you need to jack the whole car off the ground - with a bike you can just hold it in place.
    - dancek 7y ago
      I'm not jealous about Amsterdam at all. People use beat-up bikes to avoid theft but still they get stolen. And finding a parking spot for your bike is horrible. Of course the city is very nice to ride in, with all the bike lanes and bike-respecting traffic culture and the flatness of the city. But I personally prefer Helsinki (where I live) after seeing Amsterdam a couple of months ago. Never had a problem with theft on an average bike properly locked; parking a bike is easy; bike lanes and paths exist but aren't usually too crowded; motorists only rarely kill cyclists; and riding in the snow makes you feel like you're greater than you are. :)
  - dancek 7y ago
    That seems expected but somehow it doesn't happen here in Helsinki. A set of stem, handlebar and brifters should come off with an allen key and a snip of the brake and gear cables, and would cost over $300 new even for a modest road bike. OTOH the scene for used parts is tiny around here, so a high risk of getting caught unless selling abroad.
- Kluny 7y ago
  I've even heard of cases where a carbon bike frame (itself worth thousands) was cut so the parts could be stolen. But you're right, the solution is a beater bike with a big lock, and if you have a nice bike, keep it indoors and never leave it unattended for more than an hour.
  - Johnny555 7y ago
    Even a beater bike is no solution, I parked my old beater (a rusty old department store bike) at the train station, and still had the seat stolen. It was bolted on (no quick release), so whoever took it apparently had tools. So I stopped riding to the station until I got a bike locker.
    - lonelappde 7y ago
      Bike lockers are pricy in cost and space (compared to nothing, not compares to parking garages) but the only meaningful solution. Perhaps bike rooms with human attendants could work, and solve the job loss of creeping automation too!
- rizzin 7y ago
  >Is the problem with open parking stealing bikes, stealing parts or breaking bikes? I'd like to add an often overlooked problem with open parking: bikes that are left there forever to rust and rot.
  - WrtCdEvrydy 7y ago
    Really? Bikes are expensive in the US.
    - Johnny555 7y ago
      Only expensive bikes are expensive, you can pick up a cheap bike from Walmart for ~$100, or a used bike for less than that. When a tank of gas costs $50 or more, $100 for a bike is cheap even if you have to replace it every couple months.
  - Symbiote 7y ago
    In Denmark, every year or two someone will put a tag around all the bicycles parked somewhere overnight. After a month or so, the still-tagged bicycles will be removed. The local council do this in public areas, and the owners of buildings etc for private areas.
WD-42 7y ago
Infrastructure like dedicated bike parking in itself shows a cultural acceptance of biking: it's like a "you are welcome here" sign. It helps.
- Johnny555 7y ago
  Not as helpful as bike lanes that let you bike there safely. To get to my previous employer, I had to bike across a freeway overpass with exits/entrances and high speed traffic, and then ride along a two lane road (35mph posted speed, 45-55mph actual speed) with no shoulder. Despite being an avid biker and living only 4 or 5 miles away, I only biked there a handful of times, dealing with traffic was too scary. There was a rarely used bike rack by the front door.
  - mrmanner 7y ago
    The basic idea of “experimentation is good” holds for bike lanes as well — before making a permanent strategy decision for an entire city they could try painting bike lanes in a neighborhood or for one commute where people are willing to try biking. When it works out, it’s easier to convince car people that they’re better off when there are fewer cars on the road even if the road is smaller.
    - Broken_Hippo 7y ago
      Bike lanes in neighborhoods aren't as necessary as the traffic is slow and there isn't much in neighborhoods to bike to - grocery stores, jobs, and so on. This is pretty much a recipe for failure. Instead, we need major corridors to have safe bike lanes. The major route between residential and business areas is a good place to start since the scariest traffic is there.
      - Johnny555 7y ago
        True, in the example I gave above, the first part of the commute was on quiet neighborhood streets, that part was pleasant even with no bike lanes (the neighborhood even had speed bumps to keep traffic speed down), it was the last 1.5 miles where I had to cross the freeway and ride on an a narrow road with fast traffic where it became unpleasant.
bikeshaving 7y ago
The lack of protected bike lanes is a direct consequence of the policy of providing free overnight car storage on both sides of every residential/commercial street. The days of “share the road” are over: cycling advocates need to advocate for 1/2 street parking on every street if we actually want change, because this is a zero-sum game where only one side continues to murder and maim the other because they think they have a right to get somewhere faster. Temporarily repurposing street parking is a great tactic to get people to realize how much public space is given to 1 person which could serve many. See https://www.fastcompany.com/90342223/the-newest-hot-coworking-space-costs-just-2-25-an-hour-because-it-is-a-parking-spot https://www.fastcompany.com/90342223/the-newest-hot-coworkin....
- Johnny555 7y ago
  Temporarily repurposing street parking is a great tactic to get people to realize how much public space is given to 1 person which could serve many I think all it would do is enrage drivers that their parking space is being taken up by cyclists. To think that they'd finally recognize how much space is taken up by cars assumes that drivers are looking at this rationally. http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20130212-why-you-really-hate-cyclists http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20130212-why-you-really-hate...
  - bikeshaving 7y ago
    If you’re conceding that most motorists are irrational, then we as cycling advocates have all the more reason to adopt more aggressive tactics to eliminate parking. Cycling advocates should consider, in addition to legal pop-up parking replacements, sabotaging parked cars and parking spaces, blocking roads without permission, and other forms of protest to reclaim our streets. This is how Amsterdam was won (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YY6PQAI4TZE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YY6PQAI4TZE). What’s at stake is literally lives, both in the short-term in terms of victims of traffic violence, and in the long-term in terms of victims of climate disaster. I have zero interest in catering to a group of people who, as you describe, are irrational.
    - 7y ago
seltzered_ 7y ago
A usual counterpoint to this is to organize people to do a pop-up street - the Better Block project evangelized this several years ago starting in Forth Worth TX http://betterblock.org http://betterblock.org https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntwqVDzdqAU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntwqVDzdqAU Also, it doesn't have to be for biking. Seattle has a parklets program where businesses can apply and fund to have parking spaces removed for additional sitting room: http://www.seattle.gov/transportation/permits-and-services/permits/parklets-and-streateries-permits http://www.seattle.gov/transportation/permits-and-services/p... Seattle (along with other cities like) does road diets to see if reducing lanes will change habits - I'm generally for this though it can sometimes get some criticism (e.g. Cliff Mass https://cliffmass.blogspot.com/2017/04/fixing-seattles-traffic-mess.html https://cliffmass.blogspot.com/2017/04/fixing-seattles-traff... ). Perhaps the method of informing & preparing commuters in advance of road diets could be improved, alongside making sure there's plans in place to ensure transit frustrations (e.g. crowded busses, bus bunching, last-mile problems) don't occur.
vortico 7y ago
>it's lack of protected bike lanes (or other "safe" routes), and lack of cultural acceptance of biking. In my opinion, it's because most people live too far away from the places they need to go in order to bike there. I wouldn't want to ride a bike 20 miles a day, regardless of bike lanes or bike parking.
- runarberg 7y ago
  There are buses, trains, etc. That can take you most of the way. It is super handy to be able to bike to a well served direct bus route, take the bike on the bus, and bike to the destination without having to have to change from/to an underserved indirect lane.
  - vonmoltke 7y ago
    > take the bike on the bus You make that sound so simple. There's no way I could bring a bike on the bus or train I use to get to work.
    - Johnny555 7y ago
      Buses in my community have bike racks on the outside, light-rail trains have racks inside the trains. But if yours don't, another option would be a folding bike. Which apparently works even on crowded Japanese trains: https://hokkaidowilds.org/traveling-with-a-tern-folding-bike-on-the-train-in-japan https://hokkaidowilds.org/traveling-with-a-tern-folding-bike...
    - jakecopp 7y ago
      Or just buy a $50 bike second hand and park it at the end of the bus route!
      - vonmoltke 7y ago
        That's fine, but that's not the point the OP was making and doesn't do anything about the last mile problem on the other end.
CapricornNoble 7y ago
In Japan the cyclists ride on the sidewalk, and use little bells that the entire pedestrian population is conditioned to understand means "move over please, I'm coming through". I've found bike usage surprisingly high in Tokyo, Osaka, and Kyoto compared to my experience living in/near numerous US cities (Philadelphia, Miami, St. Louis, to name a few). Why the emphasis on bike lanes in US cities? Putting unarmored people on unpowered vehicles on the same transit medium as multi-ton high-powered enclosed vehicles with reduced visibility seems like a recipe for disaster. Hell, I rode a motorcycle for a little while here in Japan and stopped because I wasn't comfortable commuting to work and sharing the road with kei cars, let alone Cadillac Escalades or F-150s like in America. While riding on scooters in Hanoi with my Vietnamese friends, I learned the "ways of the road" there: small things yield to big things. Dump trucks and other large commercial vehicles drive however they please. Cars get outta their way. Then cars drive however they please, and all the mopeds kinda swarm around them and move over as necessary. Smaller vehicles are more nimble and generally have better situational awareness, so they can react more easily. Operators of smaller vehicles take it upon themselves to avoid death at the hands of the larger vehicles. In a city where people on two wheels are like 95% of all street traffic....big vehicles have traffic priority. As an aside, ALL motorists strike me as hyper-alert and competent compared to the typical American. Vietnamese on Vespas avoid collisions at the last second with lightning-quick reflexes and maneuvers that tough-guy American biker dudes I know could never pull off. It's pretty amazing. But cyclists in the States....they seem to argue "everything bigger than me on the road must adjust to accommodate me", even though they are the physically-smallest vehicles on the road, and the smallest minority of commuters. It all seems ass-backwards to me.
- Rapzid 7y ago
  My sense was that bike transpo culture was much more robust in Osaka and Kyoto compared to Tokyo. If memory serves, there was TONS of sidewalk parking so no issues there(the subject of this post just seems inflammatory TBH) but also the sidewalks were quite a bit wider than what I'm used to in cities I've been to in the USA(like SF). Also, you don't really worry about your bike getting stolen on Osaka. EDIT: Tokyo is ginormous though and I haven't really been on the ground in more than like 5 or so of the special wards :|
- 7y ago

dancek 7y ago

Is the problem with open parking stealing bikes, stealing parts or breaking bikes? The obvious safety strategy is to have a bike of lesser value with better locks than what's available nearby. But I also ponder what it would be like to own a really valuable bike. Do people steal handlebars or something, because that would make sense to me? Or is vandalism the bigger issue?

lazyasciiart 7y ago
People steal wheels, handlebars, bells, lights, bike racks and seats.
- 8ytecoder 7y ago
  And break seatposts when they are angry they couldn’t steal anything. I had a not too fancy bike that uses Pinhead locks to secure every removable component. And a sturdy U lock. There were multiple attempts to steal various components including an angry thief breaking the seat post for no good reason - the saddle is worthless. Only finally to be stolen from a secure parking garage using an electric saw in full view of the CCTV camera. Police did nothing - not that I expected them to - enough other crimes for them to deal with. Insurance paid for it. I used it to buy a nicer bike that I only ride on weekends. I’m back to taking public transit and supplanting that with bike share and walking. One of the attempts included a bike next to me that was stolen from a really popular tourist area with a cafe seating opposite the rack. When I see the way bikes are parked in Amsterdam it makes me jealous. I want to move there just for that freedom. I enjoy biking. I have heard London is worse. Solutions are emerging. There’s a crowdfunded tracker that claims to solve the radio communication problem from inside a metal body. If true, it can track the bike with a tracker located inside the frame.
  - belorn 7y ago
    What I don't get is why the same thieves do not steal the wheels, head lights and other parts of parked cars. Seems like it would be more profitable.
    - usrusr 7y ago
      The ratio between profit and police attention would be terrible for the "innovator". But it happens nonetheless, just like roof tile theft, wire theft and so on.
    - lazyasciiart 7y ago
      Cars tend to require tools by default, but a lot of bike parts can be removed just with your hands. They’re also a lot lighter and smaller, so they’re easier to carry and hide. To take the wheels off a car, for instance, you need to jack the whole car off the ground - with a bike you can just hold it in place.
  - dancek 7y ago
    I'm not jealous about Amsterdam at all. People use beat-up bikes to avoid theft but still they get stolen. And finding a parking spot for your bike is horrible. Of course the city is very nice to ride in, with all the bike lanes and bike-respecting traffic culture and the flatness of the city. But I personally prefer Helsinki (where I live) after seeing Amsterdam a couple of months ago. Never had a problem with theft on an average bike properly locked; parking a bike is easy; bike lanes and paths exist but aren't usually too crowded; motorists only rarely kill cyclists; and riding in the snow makes you feel like you're greater than you are. :)
- dancek 7y ago
  That seems expected but somehow it doesn't happen here in Helsinki. A set of stem, handlebar and brifters should come off with an allen key and a snip of the brake and gear cables, and would cost over $300 new even for a modest road bike. OTOH the scene for used parts is tiny around here, so a high risk of getting caught unless selling abroad.
Kluny 7y ago
I've even heard of cases where a carbon bike frame (itself worth thousands) was cut so the parts could be stolen. But you're right, the solution is a beater bike with a big lock, and if you have a nice bike, keep it indoors and never leave it unattended for more than an hour.
- Johnny555 7y ago
  Even a beater bike is no solution, I parked my old beater (a rusty old department store bike) at the train station, and still had the seat stolen. It was bolted on (no quick release), so whoever took it apparently had tools. So I stopped riding to the station until I got a bike locker.
  - lonelappde 7y ago
    Bike lockers are pricy in cost and space (compared to nothing, not compares to parking garages) but the only meaningful solution. Perhaps bike rooms with human attendants could work, and solve the job loss of creeping automation too!
rizzin 7y ago
>Is the problem with open parking stealing bikes, stealing parts or breaking bikes? I'd like to add an often overlooked problem with open parking: bikes that are left there forever to rust and rot.
- WrtCdEvrydy 7y ago
  Really? Bikes are expensive in the US.
  - Johnny555 7y ago
    Only expensive bikes are expensive, you can pick up a cheap bike from Walmart for ~$100, or a used bike for less than that. When a tank of gas costs $50 or more, $100 for a bike is cheap even if you have to replace it every couple months.
- Symbiote 7y ago
  In Denmark, every year or two someone will put a tag around all the bicycles parked somewhere overnight. After a month or so, the still-tagged bicycles will be removed. The local council do this in public areas, and the owners of buildings etc for private areas.

WD-42 7y ago

Infrastructure like dedicated bike parking in itself shows a cultural acceptance of biking: it's like a "you are welcome here" sign. It helps.

Johnny555 7y ago
Not as helpful as bike lanes that let you bike there safely. To get to my previous employer, I had to bike across a freeway overpass with exits/entrances and high speed traffic, and then ride along a two lane road (35mph posted speed, 45-55mph actual speed) with no shoulder. Despite being an avid biker and living only 4 or 5 miles away, I only biked there a handful of times, dealing with traffic was too scary. There was a rarely used bike rack by the front door.
- mrmanner 7y ago
  The basic idea of “experimentation is good” holds for bike lanes as well — before making a permanent strategy decision for an entire city they could try painting bike lanes in a neighborhood or for one commute where people are willing to try biking. When it works out, it’s easier to convince car people that they’re better off when there are fewer cars on the road even if the road is smaller.
  - Broken_Hippo 7y ago
    Bike lanes in neighborhoods aren't as necessary as the traffic is slow and there isn't much in neighborhoods to bike to - grocery stores, jobs, and so on. This is pretty much a recipe for failure. Instead, we need major corridors to have safe bike lanes. The major route between residential and business areas is a good place to start since the scariest traffic is there.
    - Johnny555 7y ago
      True, in the example I gave above, the first part of the commute was on quiet neighborhood streets, that part was pleasant even with no bike lanes (the neighborhood even had speed bumps to keep traffic speed down), it was the last 1.5 miles where I had to cross the freeway and ride on an a narrow road with fast traffic where it became unpleasant.

bikeshaving 7y ago

The lack of protected bike lanes is a direct consequence of the policy of providing free overnight car storage on both sides of every residential/commercial street. The days of “share the road” are over: cycling advocates need to advocate for 1/2 street parking on every street if we actually want change, because this is a zero-sum game where only one side continues to murder and maim the other because they think they have a right to get somewhere faster. Temporarily repurposing street parking is a great tactic to get people to realize how much public space is given to 1 person which could serve many. See https://www.fastcompany.com/90342223/the-newest-hot-coworking-space-costs-just-2-25-an-hour-because-it-is-a-parking-spot https://www.fastcompany.com/90342223/the-newest-hot-coworkin....

Johnny555 7y ago
Temporarily repurposing street parking is a great tactic to get people to realize how much public space is given to 1 person which could serve many I think all it would do is enrage drivers that their parking space is being taken up by cyclists. To think that they'd finally recognize how much space is taken up by cars assumes that drivers are looking at this rationally. http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20130212-why-you-really-hate-cyclists http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20130212-why-you-really-hate...
- bikeshaving 7y ago
  If you’re conceding that most motorists are irrational, then we as cycling advocates have all the more reason to adopt more aggressive tactics to eliminate parking. Cycling advocates should consider, in addition to legal pop-up parking replacements, sabotaging parked cars and parking spaces, blocking roads without permission, and other forms of protest to reclaim our streets. This is how Amsterdam was won (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YY6PQAI4TZE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YY6PQAI4TZE). What’s at stake is literally lives, both in the short-term in terms of victims of traffic violence, and in the long-term in terms of victims of climate disaster. I have zero interest in catering to a group of people who, as you describe, are irrational.
  - 7y ago

seltzered_ 7y ago

A usual counterpoint to this is to organize people to do a pop-up street - the Better Block project evangelized this several years ago starting in Forth Worth TX http://betterblock.org http://betterblock.org https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntwqVDzdqAU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntwqVDzdqAU Also, it doesn't have to be for biking. Seattle has a parklets program where businesses can apply and fund to have parking spaces removed for additional sitting room: http://www.seattle.gov/transportation/permits-and-services/permits/parklets-and-streateries-permits http://www.seattle.gov/transportation/permits-and-services/p... Seattle (along with other cities like) does road diets to see if reducing lanes will change habits - I'm generally for this though it can sometimes get some criticism (e.g. Cliff Mass https://cliffmass.blogspot.com/2017/04/fixing-seattles-traffic-mess.html https://cliffmass.blogspot.com/2017/04/fixing-seattles-traff... ). Perhaps the method of informing & preparing commuters in advance of road diets could be improved, alongside making sure there's plans in place to ensure transit frustrations (e.g. crowded busses, bus bunching, last-mile problems) don't occur.

vortico 7y ago

>it's lack of protected bike lanes (or other "safe" routes), and lack of cultural acceptance of biking. In my opinion, it's because most people live too far away from the places they need to go in order to bike there. I wouldn't want to ride a bike 20 miles a day, regardless of bike lanes or bike parking.

runarberg 7y ago
There are buses, trains, etc. That can take you most of the way. It is super handy to be able to bike to a well served direct bus route, take the bike on the bus, and bike to the destination without having to have to change from/to an underserved indirect lane.
- vonmoltke 7y ago
  > take the bike on the bus You make that sound so simple. There's no way I could bring a bike on the bus or train I use to get to work.
  - Johnny555 7y ago
    Buses in my community have bike racks on the outside, light-rail trains have racks inside the trains. But if yours don't, another option would be a folding bike. Which apparently works even on crowded Japanese trains: https://hokkaidowilds.org/traveling-with-a-tern-folding-bike-on-the-train-in-japan https://hokkaidowilds.org/traveling-with-a-tern-folding-bike...
  - jakecopp 7y ago
    Or just buy a $50 bike second hand and park it at the end of the bus route!
    - vonmoltke 7y ago
      That's fine, but that's not the point the OP was making and doesn't do anything about the last mile problem on the other end.

CapricornNoble 7y ago

In Japan the cyclists ride on the sidewalk, and use little bells that the entire pedestrian population is conditioned to understand means "move over please, I'm coming through". I've found bike usage surprisingly high in Tokyo, Osaka, and Kyoto compared to my experience living in/near numerous US cities (Philadelphia, Miami, St. Louis, to name a few). Why the emphasis on bike lanes in US cities? Putting unarmored people on unpowered vehicles on the same transit medium as multi-ton high-powered enclosed vehicles with reduced visibility seems like a recipe for disaster. Hell, I rode a motorcycle for a little while here in Japan and stopped because I wasn't comfortable commuting to work and sharing the road with kei cars, let alone Cadillac Escalades or F-150s like in America. While riding on scooters in Hanoi with my Vietnamese friends, I learned the "ways of the road" there: small things yield to big things. Dump trucks and other large commercial vehicles drive however they please. Cars get outta their way. Then cars drive however they please, and all the mopeds kinda swarm around them and move over as necessary. Smaller vehicles are more nimble and generally have better situational awareness, so they can react more easily. Operators of smaller vehicles take it upon themselves to avoid death at the hands of the larger vehicles. In a city where people on two wheels are like 95% of all street traffic....big vehicles have traffic priority. As an aside, ALL motorists strike me as hyper-alert and competent compared to the typical American. Vietnamese on Vespas avoid collisions at the last second with lightning-quick reflexes and maneuvers that tough-guy American biker dudes I know could never pull off. It's pretty amazing. But cyclists in the States....they seem to argue "everything bigger than me on the road must adjust to accommodate me", even though they are the physically-smallest vehicles on the road, and the smallest minority of commuters. It all seems ass-backwards to me.

Rapzid 7y ago
My sense was that bike transpo culture was much more robust in Osaka and Kyoto compared to Tokyo. If memory serves, there was TONS of sidewalk parking so no issues there(the subject of this post just seems inflammatory TBH) but also the sidewalks were quite a bit wider than what I'm used to in cities I've been to in the USA(like SF). Also, you don't really worry about your bike getting stolen on Osaka. EDIT: Tokyo is ginormous though and I haven't really been on the ground in more than like 5 or so of the special wards :|
7y ago