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Upvoted and agree with most of what you wrote. But nitpicking: > It optimizes for solutions that reproduce well (relative to competitors) in the short term.

by titzer 7y ago

Upvoted and agree with most of what you wrote. But nitpicking: > It optimizes for solutions that reproduce well (relative to competitors) in the short term. That's only true up to a point. Natural selection works on ecosystems too, and ecosystems that are highly unstable and prone to self-destruct (which we might expect is highly correlated with short-term optimization) will eventually be selected out. So, sustainability is literally the only thing that can win in the end, if it can survive the instability of short-term optimizations.

lisper 7y ago
Appreciate the upvote, but... > Natural selection works on ecosystems too No, it doesn't. Ecosystems don't reproduce. Natural selection works on genes (and memes). See Dawkins, "The Selfish Gene."
- titzer 7y ago
  Ecosystems do reproduce, both internally and externally. Internally they are a system which is made of many interlocking webs of reproducing organisms, and externally they naturally grow and spread. They don't reproduce through distinct generations but they are constantly rejuvenating themselves. They spread and "copy" themselves into new niches by their constituent organisms doing so. With that context my comment probably makes more sense.
  - lisper 7y ago
    Nope. But some references might help.
    - titzer 7y ago
      Here's a good start: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1692970/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1692970/ One of the key points: (iii) ecosystem diversity and productivity increases over macroevolutionary time as a whole, and after each major extinction event. That implies that major extinction events do in fact affect ecosystems profoundly, and the ones that emerge successfully have more productivity and diversity.
      - lisper 7y ago
        That reference does not support your claim that "ecosystems reproduce" at all. In fact, the paper says the exact opposite: organisms reproduce. Ecosystems do not. Not even your cherry-picked quote supports your claim. "Ecosystem diversity and productivity increases" is not even remotely the same thing as "ecosystems reproduce."
        titzer 7y ago
        The nature and tone of your replies really doesn't make this all that productive. I could go on to explain, but three nopes in a row is my limit.

by titzer 7y ago

lisper 7y ago

Appreciate the upvote, but... > Natural selection works on ecosystems too No, it doesn't. Ecosystems don't reproduce. Natural selection works on genes (and memes). See Dawkins, "The Selfish Gene."

titzer 7y ago
Ecosystems do reproduce, both internally and externally. Internally they are a system which is made of many interlocking webs of reproducing organisms, and externally they naturally grow and spread. They don't reproduce through distinct generations but they are constantly rejuvenating themselves. They spread and "copy" themselves into new niches by their constituent organisms doing so. With that context my comment probably makes more sense.
- lisper 7y ago
  Nope. But some references might help.
  - titzer 7y ago
    Here's a good start: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1692970/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1692970/ One of the key points: (iii) ecosystem diversity and productivity increases over macroevolutionary time as a whole, and after each major extinction event. That implies that major extinction events do in fact affect ecosystems profoundly, and the ones that emerge successfully have more productivity and diversity.
    - lisper 7y ago
      That reference does not support your claim that "ecosystems reproduce" at all. In fact, the paper says the exact opposite: organisms reproduce. Ecosystems do not. Not even your cherry-picked quote supports your claim. "Ecosystem diversity and productivity increases" is not even remotely the same thing as "ecosystems reproduce."
      - titzer 7y ago
        The nature and tone of your replies really doesn't make this all that productive. I could go on to explain, but three nopes in a row is my limit.