4 ms·

Fun cheap places to get resident and startup

7 points by weredone 18y ago

I'm in the valley and stuck in immigration paperwork hell on a h1b. I'm about to hand my boss her head on a plate so am considering a new gig.. probably a startup. I have $500k burning a hole in my pocket from a previous fun gig... my ideal is a fun place where that will last several years while I bootstrap something. Any suggestions for warm geek friendly places to do it? Excellent internet availability is required but after that.. (My home country is ridiculously overpriced, cold and not geek friendly)

asimjalis 18y ago
Are you looking for a place to live or a job?
- weredone 18y ago
  First thought is place to live so I can build a new product. However, given a sufficiently fun job and ability to get residence.. then I'm interested in that too. Getting residence is required for my wife to stop going crazy not being able to work etc. H1B+H4 is an ugly visa combination for a couple to live on.
  - mleonhard 18y ago
    I'm interested in hearing where you end up going.
cperciva 18y ago
Canada is good (particularly Vancouver, which probably comes second only to San Francisco in the race to be the most socially liberal place in the English speaking world), and is far more immigrant-friendly than the US (especially if you're educated and speak English or French). EDIT: Just noticed the word "warm". If this is a reference to the physical climate rather than the social climate, you'd definitely want Vancouver or Vancouver Island rather than anywhere else in Canada.
- weredone 18y ago
  I would love Vancouver but the downside is that 1) I'm not rich enough to skip the queue and 2) the queue is 16 to 44 months long (depending on place of application). Its very high on my list of preferred locations but no joy in discussing with the immigration people.
  - cperciva 18y ago
    [immigration queue] Yeah, that's the one problem with Canada... we're too popular. :-) The immigration rules are in the process of being changed, though (legislation currently before the parliament, I believe) to make the queue somewhat less rigid -- the current process is broken (e.g., each office must consider applications in the order they were received, even if the applicant has died in the years since they applied), so the government is putting forward a "let's consider applicants in whatever order we feel like" bill. If this passes, there's a good chance that highly qualified applicants won't have quite as long a wait in the future. Another option, of course, is just to send in the application and let the government chew on it while you go somewhere else for a year or two.
    - babyshake 18y ago
      I'm actually a dual citizen, so I can go up anytime, I believe. thhhhhp! But seriously, are there good reasons for me to go from the bay area to Vancouver? I imagine I would just be paying more in taxes...
      - cperciva 18y ago
        I'm actually a dual citizen, so I can go up anytime, I believe. You don't even need to be a dual citizen -- if you're a citizen of the US or Canada, have a job offer, and have reasonable qualifications (a Bachelor's degree in most fields is enough) you can drive up to the border, mention NAFTA, and get a visa on the spot. are there good reasons for me to go from the bay area to Vancouver I haven't lived in the bay area, and I don't know your circumstances, so it's hard for me to give a good answer here. I know when Google offered me a job in Mt.View, one of the factors which led me to not accept was that between Vancouver and what I had seen of the bay area, I much preferred Vancouver -- but I grew up in Vancouver, and my tastes have probably been molded by that. If you grew up in a dry, polluted, urban sprawl, you might prefer the bay area. I imagine I would just be paying more in taxes... Don't be so certain. Canada has publicly-funded health care, which tends to raise taxes, but it also has much lower per-capita military spending than the US. I can't make much sense out of US income tax forms, but Google found me http://dbaron.org/views/taxes-2007.html http://dbaron.org/views/taxes-2007.html; comparing it to an analysis I did last year http://www.daemonology.net/blog/2007-05.html http://www.daemonology.net/blog/2007-05.html it looks like a single California taxpayer typically pays a marginal tax rate of about 40% of income while a single BC taxpayer typically pays a marginal rate of about 26% of income -- of course, in BC we have provincial and federal sales taxes which add a combined 12% to most things you'll be buying (does California have any sales tax? I don't know), and gasoline taxes which are higher than you have in the US. In short: I suspect that the difference between taxes you pay in the bay area and taxes you'd pay in Vancouver could be either positive or negative depending on your individual situation. Then of course there's the issue of real estate costs: Vancouver is the most expensive place in Canada, but I understand that it's still far cheaper than the bay area...
carterschonwald 18y ago
Cambridge Ma is pretty fun, but doesn't fit the bill of being not in the US etc
nreece 18y ago
Melbourne, Australia -- The place to be! Startup scene is pretty good and improving: http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/australia_top_web_apps.php http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/australia_top_web_apps.... http://www.futureexploration.net/topweb2apps/ http://www.futureexploration.net/topweb2apps/
- hugh 18y ago
  I second this recommendation of Melbourne (and coming from a Sydney native like me, that really means something). But I'm not sure if an Australian visa is any easier to get than a US one.
  - maryrosecook 18y ago
    An Australian visa is much easier to get than a US one. You apply online and get an answer within weeks.
terpua 18y ago
Why don't you try the Philippines? Manila and Cebu have plenty of hackers. It's cheap, warm and friendly. And we all speak English. Singapore might be another consideration.
- mleonhard 18y ago
  Does Cebu have air pollution like Manila?
  - terpua 18y ago
    Not as bad. But there is a new area (city actually) within Metro Manila called Fort Bonifacio that's new and less polluted (the public transports in/out of FB are regulated). Lots of residential buildings, restos and a few office buildings designated as economic zones (you get a 5 year tax holiday on corporate income tax). http://www.fort-bonifacio.com/ http://www.fort-bonifacio.com/ The con: traffic in Metro Manila is bad (not bad in FB though). Wise to live and work in same area.
- terpua 18y ago
  Btw, many US-based corps/startups have presence here... Microsoft, TI, IBM, Sun, Friendster, Engine Yard, Yahoo, etc. Google gave a talk late last year: http://randell.ph/geeky/2007/11/21/techtalk-with-google-engineers/ http://randell.ph/geeky/2007/11/21/techtalk-with-google-engi...
sidsavara 18y ago
Hawaii (still in the USA) is great in that it's a warm place, but the cost of living is high. However, great hackers in Hawaii cost 50-75% what they would in Silicon Valley. A lot of intelligent, quality people move back here after going to school at fairly good schools (many go to USC,UCLA,Berkeley,Stanford - a smaller amount Harvard and MIT before returning home for cultural/family reasons). I know this because I left Los Angeles for a 30% pay cut to come home to Hawaii. I get paid less, but I can walk around in my tank top all year. Call it an extreme sunshine tax. The highest profile startup we've had recently are the guys that built Sprout Builder. ilovephotos.com (Blue Lava Technologies) is an amazing product that I'm not sure I'm allowed to discuss, and also built out of Hawaii. They also have a few incubators/innovation centers where you can get cheap office space (and cheap everything else). They're nice offices,, but subsidized considerably by the local government specifically to spur more innovation here.
staunch 18y ago
Isn't $500k enough for an investor visa?
deleted 18y ago
[deleted]
mleonhard 18y ago
Notice weredone's profile. Is this a joke on Yahoo employees? user: weredone created: 3 hours ago karma: 5 about:
1gor 18y ago
If criteria are a) living cost b) climate c) geek friendliness (tech/business culture, infrastructure etc.) then Singapore will probably win. Bonus: you get exposed to booming Asia.
k10 18y ago
India. Technically you wont be outsourcing too !!!
iamelgringo 18y ago
Last I checked, Costa Rica had pretty liberal immigration for high tech entrepreneurs. If you are willing to invest a certain ammount, ($30K last I checked) you can get residency. And, they do have a decent high tech sector with a number of online gambling websites being hosted there. Intel also has a fab there. Weather is phenomenal, it's about 75 degrees F year around in the capital city, San Jose. And, because it's an isthmus, the Pacific is 2 hours away from San Jose and the Caribbean is 3 hours away. I lived there in the 80's and it was great. My brother just moved away (had to move away because of work) and said that traffic was getting a bit burdensome, though. If you go, drop me a line and I'll tell you some great places to go snorkeling.
asdflkj 18y ago
Your home country is Norway, then? In any case, I'd really like to know which cold, overpriced country is not geek friendly (and why).
ideas101 18y ago
because you need 2 things (residency and geeks) no matter where you live you have to be mentally prepared to live there for a year or 2 before you move permanently. i would suggest to file for immigration for canada and in the mean time find a temporary place to live couple of years. the best thing is to shortlist top 2 places and then apply for immigration at one place and move temporarily to the place that was 2nd on the list (who know you may like 2nd place more than the first one). Also if you file for canadian PR (while you're in US) then it won't take longer - US cases are faster than other countries but you need to file while you are living in US. Your choices: Asia: Singapore, India, Indonesia, Philippines Europe: any eastern europe that has good weather and geeks. Far East: Australia (btw australia also has immigration policy, and fantastic weather) Middle East: Abu-dhabi and Dubai (most happening place, no tax, you just need to find good geeks or import it from India). Good Luck. P.S: Find out everything about Australia and Canada - they both have immigration policy - in fact i recently heard that australia has something like temp work visa for people under 30 and then you can file for permanent residency.

7 points by weredone 18y ago

asimjalis 18y ago

Are you looking for a place to live or a job?

weredone 18y ago
First thought is place to live so I can build a new product. However, given a sufficiently fun job and ability to get residence.. then I'm interested in that too. Getting residence is required for my wife to stop going crazy not being able to work etc. H1B+H4 is an ugly visa combination for a couple to live on.
- mleonhard 18y ago
  I'm interested in hearing where you end up going.

cperciva 18y ago

Canada is good (particularly Vancouver, which probably comes second only to San Francisco in the race to be the most socially liberal place in the English speaking world), and is far more immigrant-friendly than the US (especially if you're educated and speak English or French). EDIT: Just noticed the word "warm". If this is a reference to the physical climate rather than the social climate, you'd definitely want Vancouver or Vancouver Island rather than anywhere else in Canada.

weredone 18y ago
I would love Vancouver but the downside is that 1) I'm not rich enough to skip the queue and 2) the queue is 16 to 44 months long (depending on place of application). Its very high on my list of preferred locations but no joy in discussing with the immigration people.
- cperciva 18y ago
  [immigration queue] Yeah, that's the one problem with Canada... we're too popular. :-) The immigration rules are in the process of being changed, though (legislation currently before the parliament, I believe) to make the queue somewhat less rigid -- the current process is broken (e.g., each office must consider applications in the order they were received, even if the applicant has died in the years since they applied), so the government is putting forward a "let's consider applicants in whatever order we feel like" bill. If this passes, there's a good chance that highly qualified applicants won't have quite as long a wait in the future. Another option, of course, is just to send in the application and let the government chew on it while you go somewhere else for a year or two.
  - babyshake 18y ago
    I'm actually a dual citizen, so I can go up anytime, I believe. thhhhhp! But seriously, are there good reasons for me to go from the bay area to Vancouver? I imagine I would just be paying more in taxes...
    - cperciva 18y ago
      I'm actually a dual citizen, so I can go up anytime, I believe. You don't even need to be a dual citizen -- if you're a citizen of the US or Canada, have a job offer, and have reasonable qualifications (a Bachelor's degree in most fields is enough) you can drive up to the border, mention NAFTA, and get a visa on the spot. are there good reasons for me to go from the bay area to Vancouver I haven't lived in the bay area, and I don't know your circumstances, so it's hard for me to give a good answer here. I know when Google offered me a job in Mt.View, one of the factors which led me to not accept was that between Vancouver and what I had seen of the bay area, I much preferred Vancouver -- but I grew up in Vancouver, and my tastes have probably been molded by that. If you grew up in a dry, polluted, urban sprawl, you might prefer the bay area. I imagine I would just be paying more in taxes... Don't be so certain. Canada has publicly-funded health care, which tends to raise taxes, but it also has much lower per-capita military spending than the US. I can't make much sense out of US income tax forms, but Google found me http://dbaron.org/views/taxes-2007.html http://dbaron.org/views/taxes-2007.html; comparing it to an analysis I did last year http://www.daemonology.net/blog/2007-05.html http://www.daemonology.net/blog/2007-05.html it looks like a single California taxpayer typically pays a marginal tax rate of about 40% of income while a single BC taxpayer typically pays a marginal rate of about 26% of income -- of course, in BC we have provincial and federal sales taxes which add a combined 12% to most things you'll be buying (does California have any sales tax? I don't know), and gasoline taxes which are higher than you have in the US. In short: I suspect that the difference between taxes you pay in the bay area and taxes you'd pay in Vancouver could be either positive or negative depending on your individual situation. Then of course there's the issue of real estate costs: Vancouver is the most expensive place in Canada, but I understand that it's still far cheaper than the bay area...

carterschonwald 18y ago

Cambridge Ma is pretty fun, but doesn't fit the bill of being not in the US etc

nreece 18y ago

Melbourne, Australia -- The place to be! Startup scene is pretty good and improving: http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/australia_top_web_apps.php http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/australia_top_web_apps.... http://www.futureexploration.net/topweb2apps/ http://www.futureexploration.net/topweb2apps/

hugh 18y ago
I second this recommendation of Melbourne (and coming from a Sydney native like me, that really means something). But I'm not sure if an Australian visa is any easier to get than a US one.
- maryrosecook 18y ago
  An Australian visa is much easier to get than a US one. You apply online and get an answer within weeks.

terpua 18y ago

Why don't you try the Philippines? Manila and Cebu have plenty of hackers. It's cheap, warm and friendly. And we all speak English. Singapore might be another consideration.

mleonhard 18y ago
Does Cebu have air pollution like Manila?
- terpua 18y ago
  Not as bad. But there is a new area (city actually) within Metro Manila called Fort Bonifacio that's new and less polluted (the public transports in/out of FB are regulated). Lots of residential buildings, restos and a few office buildings designated as economic zones (you get a 5 year tax holiday on corporate income tax). http://www.fort-bonifacio.com/ http://www.fort-bonifacio.com/ The con: traffic in Metro Manila is bad (not bad in FB though). Wise to live and work in same area.
terpua 18y ago
Btw, many US-based corps/startups have presence here... Microsoft, TI, IBM, Sun, Friendster, Engine Yard, Yahoo, etc. Google gave a talk late last year: http://randell.ph/geeky/2007/11/21/techtalk-with-google-engineers/ http://randell.ph/geeky/2007/11/21/techtalk-with-google-engi...

sidsavara 18y ago

Hawaii (still in the USA) is great in that it's a warm place, but the cost of living is high. However, great hackers in Hawaii cost 50-75% what they would in Silicon Valley. A lot of intelligent, quality people move back here after going to school at fairly good schools (many go to USC,UCLA,Berkeley,Stanford - a smaller amount Harvard and MIT before returning home for cultural/family reasons). I know this because I left Los Angeles for a 30% pay cut to come home to Hawaii. I get paid less, but I can walk around in my tank top all year. Call it an extreme sunshine tax. The highest profile startup we've had recently are the guys that built Sprout Builder. ilovephotos.com (Blue Lava Technologies) is an amazing product that I'm not sure I'm allowed to discuss, and also built out of Hawaii. They also have a few incubators/innovation centers where you can get cheap office space (and cheap everything else). They're nice offices,, but subsidized considerably by the local government specifically to spur more innovation here.

staunch 18y ago

Isn't $500k enough for an investor visa?

deleted 18y ago

[deleted]

mleonhard 18y ago

Notice weredone's profile. Is this a joke on Yahoo employees? user: weredone created: 3 hours ago karma: 5 about:

1gor 18y ago

If criteria are a) living cost b) climate c) geek friendliness (tech/business culture, infrastructure etc.) then Singapore will probably win. Bonus: you get exposed to booming Asia.

k10 18y ago

India. Technically you wont be outsourcing too !!!

iamelgringo 18y ago

Last I checked, Costa Rica had pretty liberal immigration for high tech entrepreneurs. If you are willing to invest a certain ammount, ($30K last I checked) you can get residency. And, they do have a decent high tech sector with a number of online gambling websites being hosted there. Intel also has a fab there. Weather is phenomenal, it's about 75 degrees F year around in the capital city, San Jose. And, because it's an isthmus, the Pacific is 2 hours away from San Jose and the Caribbean is 3 hours away. I lived there in the 80's and it was great. My brother just moved away (had to move away because of work) and said that traffic was getting a bit burdensome, though. If you go, drop me a line and I'll tell you some great places to go snorkeling.

asdflkj 18y ago

Your home country is Norway, then? In any case, I'd really like to know which cold, overpriced country is not geek friendly (and why).

ideas101 18y ago

because you need 2 things (residency and geeks) no matter where you live you have to be mentally prepared to live there for a year or 2 before you move permanently. i would suggest to file for immigration for canada and in the mean time find a temporary place to live couple of years. the best thing is to shortlist top 2 places and then apply for immigration at one place and move temporarily to the place that was 2nd on the list (who know you may like 2nd place more than the first one). Also if you file for canadian PR (while you're in US) then it won't take longer - US cases are faster than other countries but you need to file while you are living in US. Your choices: Asia: Singapore, India, Indonesia, Philippines Europe: any eastern europe that has good weather and geeks. Far East: Australia (btw australia also has immigration policy, and fantastic weather) Middle East: Abu-dhabi and Dubai (most happening place, no tax, you just need to find good geeks or import it from India). Good Luck. P.S: Find out everything about Australia and Canada - they both have immigration policy - in fact i recently heard that australia has something like temp work visa for people under 30 and then you can file for permanent residency.