4 ms·

This guy got fewer years than the other guy because he helped get the other guy convicted. It just seems wrong, in principle, that the law rewards that sort of

by Doubl 7y ago

This guy got fewer years than the other guy because he helped get the other guy convicted. It just seems wrong, in principle, that the law rewards that sort of behaviour. That's apart from the problems with trusting such self serving testimony.

kevin_thibedeau 7y ago
The guys in his block will find out he's a snitch. The shorter sentence may be more of a curse.
- coldacid 7y ago
  You think they're gonna throw an (ex-) lawyer in with all the thugs? Nah, it'll probably be Club Fed for Steele.
schoen 7y ago
This is the exact scenario that motivated the name of the Prisoner's Dilemma, for what it's worth.
mattnewton 7y ago
The prisoner’s dilemma works for getting convictions at all, not necessarily fair and balanced ones. The state often needs defectors to prove their cases beyond reasonable doubt, and I would take this over the alternatives of a stronger surveillance state or a relaxed “beyond reasonable doubt” standard.
- bilbo0s 7y ago
  The big issue with Prisoner's Dilemma is that people lie. Just as a for instance, consider: https://www.oxygen.com/martinis-murder/link-between-debra-carter-denice-haraway-murder-cases-terri-holland https://www.oxygen.com/martinis-murder/link-between-debra-ca... So all across the US, in a very real way, there are times that the state puts innocent people in prison in exchange for lies told by guilty people. Worse, the state then allows those guilty people back out onto the streets to commit more crimes. This causes no end of problems in society. From crime, to the complete and total nonexistence of trust between certain communities and law enforcement. (Think about it, they know who are the good guys and who are the bad guys. So if you are letting a guilty bad guy send an innocent good guy to prison, they understandably intuit that there's likely an unflattering reason that you are doing that.) For all these reasons, and more actually, the practice should be stopped. Your post sets up a false dichotomy. You have essentially said, "We can't have a non-corrupt system. So we should have a system where the guilty are encouraged to lie and go free rather than a system where we have surveillance everywhere catching everyone all the time." Here's the thing though, we can have a less corrupt system. A system free of both of those practices. That's a perfectly reasonable alternative. We can have prosecutors either prove their cases with actual data based evidence rather than tainted anecdotes, or not. That's what the adversarial system intended.
  - mattnewton 7y ago
    I was actually hoping to not frame it as an exhaustive listing of options - just the ones I had seen in practice working. I certainly hope there aren’t more working options; I just haven’t seen them tested.
dclowd9901 7y ago
Our arcane system of punitive justice and trophy arrests and convictions has no interest in actually sponsoring or engendering good behavior.
- pessimizer 7y ago
  Is obstruction of an investigation good behavior?
  - dclowd9901 7y ago
    No, of course it isn't; I'm not sure why Trump's obstruction of Mueller's investigation is being brought up here though?
pessimizer 7y ago
> It just seems wrong, in principle, that the law rewards that sort of behaviour I'm not sure what sort of behavior you're referring to here. Snitching? Authorities should always reward snitching (unless it's snitching on the authorities.) edit: probably the concept of a don being rewarded for snitching on his capos? I wholeheartedly support this. It prevents Eichmanns from giving up their agency. If you're a capo, you had better fully trust in the loyalty of your don, because a good law isn't going to enforce your criminal contract. If it did, it's basically legitimizing the relationship between criminal co-conspirators.
- ticmasta 7y ago
  he didn't snitch until it was his own neck/balls in the noose. He's not a whistle blower who saw the error of his ways and tried for redemption. To get less than 1/2 the recommended sentence seems like a pretty sweet deal. His lawyer sounds like a real grease ball as well.
- jimhefferon 7y ago
  > Authorities should always reward snitching Often authorities have not way of knowing if the tale told is true.

by Doubl 7y ago

kevin_thibedeau 7y ago

The guys in his block will find out he's a snitch. The shorter sentence may be more of a curse.

coldacid 7y ago
You think they're gonna throw an (ex-) lawyer in with all the thugs? Nah, it'll probably be Club Fed for Steele.

schoen 7y ago

This is the exact scenario that motivated the name of the Prisoner's Dilemma, for what it's worth.

mattnewton 7y ago

The prisoner’s dilemma works for getting convictions at all, not necessarily fair and balanced ones. The state often needs defectors to prove their cases beyond reasonable doubt, and I would take this over the alternatives of a stronger surveillance state or a relaxed “beyond reasonable doubt” standard.

bilbo0s 7y ago
The big issue with Prisoner's Dilemma is that people lie. Just as a for instance, consider: https://www.oxygen.com/martinis-murder/link-between-debra-carter-denice-haraway-murder-cases-terri-holland https://www.oxygen.com/martinis-murder/link-between-debra-ca... So all across the US, in a very real way, there are times that the state puts innocent people in prison in exchange for lies told by guilty people. Worse, the state then allows those guilty people back out onto the streets to commit more crimes. This causes no end of problems in society. From crime, to the complete and total nonexistence of trust between certain communities and law enforcement. (Think about it, they know who are the good guys and who are the bad guys. So if you are letting a guilty bad guy send an innocent good guy to prison, they understandably intuit that there's likely an unflattering reason that you are doing that.) For all these reasons, and more actually, the practice should be stopped. Your post sets up a false dichotomy. You have essentially said, "We can't have a non-corrupt system. So we should have a system where the guilty are encouraged to lie and go free rather than a system where we have surveillance everywhere catching everyone all the time." Here's the thing though, we can have a less corrupt system. A system free of both of those practices. That's a perfectly reasonable alternative. We can have prosecutors either prove their cases with actual data based evidence rather than tainted anecdotes, or not. That's what the adversarial system intended.
- mattnewton 7y ago
  I was actually hoping to not frame it as an exhaustive listing of options - just the ones I had seen in practice working. I certainly hope there aren’t more working options; I just haven’t seen them tested.

dclowd9901 7y ago

Our arcane system of punitive justice and trophy arrests and convictions has no interest in actually sponsoring or engendering good behavior.

pessimizer 7y ago
Is obstruction of an investigation good behavior?
- dclowd9901 7y ago
  No, of course it isn't; I'm not sure why Trump's obstruction of Mueller's investigation is being brought up here though?

pessimizer 7y ago

> It just seems wrong, in principle, that the law rewards that sort of behaviour I'm not sure what sort of behavior you're referring to here. Snitching? Authorities should always reward snitching (unless it's snitching on the authorities.) edit: probably the concept of a don being rewarded for snitching on his capos? I wholeheartedly support this. It prevents Eichmanns from giving up their agency. If you're a capo, you had better fully trust in the loyalty of your don, because a good law isn't going to enforce your criminal contract. If it did, it's basically legitimizing the relationship between criminal co-conspirators.

ticmasta 7y ago
he didn't snitch until it was his own neck/balls in the noose. He's not a whistle blower who saw the error of his ways and tried for redemption. To get less than 1/2 the recommended sentence seems like a pretty sweet deal. His lawyer sounds like a real grease ball as well.
jimhefferon 7y ago
> Authorities should always reward snitching Often authorities have not way of knowing if the tale told is true.