5 ms·

> Doesn't seem that far off from today where profits trump safety and any reason that stands in the way is ignored. Really? :) While accidents do happen, the

by jopsen 7y ago

> Doesn't seem that far off from today where profits trump safety and any reason that stands in the way is ignored. Really? :) While accidents do happen, the rate of accidents is going down. Injuries in general: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/total-number-of-deaths-by-cause?stackMode=relative https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/total-number-of-deaths-by... Fire: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/fire-deaths-by-age https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/fire-deaths-by-age Drowning: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/drowning-deaths-by-age-group https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/drowning-deaths-by-age-gr... And even motor vehicle deaths, could plausibly have topped: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/road-deaths-by-type https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/road-deaths-by-type (this is world wide, in the developed world these peek many decades ago)

girvo 7y ago
One must only look at climate change for an example of what the parent commenter is talking about, I think.
Wohlf 7y ago
We live in the safest time ever, yet some people don't realize or refuse to believe it. I blame media bubbles.
- salawat 7y ago
  No, we don't. We live in a local minimum based on what we're actually well equipped to define and measure, and what people in positions of power are willing to treat as actionable information. Politics is swinging to the extremes, violence is changing it's clothes, taking on other less familiar forms. Trust in the system is at a low. Economic inequality is rife; infrastructure and the environment is approaching levels of instability previously unheard of. These aren't media bubbles. These are failures to maintain or achieve higher order awareness. All of these things are feeding into each other in myriad ways; they can't be reasoned in individual contexts for solutions. That's the thinking that got us where we are. They need to be reasoned about as a whole. Problems cannot be solved with the same level of thinking that created them in the first place.
  - kube-system 7y ago
    If you are suggesting that we aren’t able to say we’re at all time lows due to a lack of good long term historical information, then you also can’t draw the opposite conclusion that we _aren’t_ at at an all time low. We simply don’t know. But I’d bet it’s highly unlikely that a lack of measurement and/or recording led to better results. I do agree that trust is probably at pretty low levels — exactly because communication is more accessible than any time in history and therefore people have more opportunity to question authority. But a lack in trust doesn’t translate directly to violence. I think that people are becoming very complacent with distrust. The daily media barrage of reasons to distrust so many things has reached the point where it doesn’t cause outrage anymore. It has convinced some people that distrust is normal.
    - y4mi 7y ago
      every issue salawat mentioned wasn't something that would result in violence and deaths today so its not refuted by citing current statistic. They're warnings for the future, because while its true that we're currently living in a pretty safe environment and are overall pretty well off, our children won't have that luxury. Once these issues actually start getting reflected in global statics, its going to be way too late to actually realistically pull this proverbial ship around. And he didn't even mention half of the things on the horizon with the potential to seriously harm society such as global warming and the evermore increasing amount of automation destroying the livelihood of a lot of people. (automation isn't bad, its just going to cause a lot of problems and unrest very soon)
      - iguy 7y ago
        Prediction is hard, especially about the future! What's clear is the data about the recent past, and the trends are very good, both for accidental and deliberate death (among other things) on a time-scale of decades to centuries. There are indeed some reversals (in the last few years: some kinds of crime, pedestrian deaths, opioids) which the optimists hope will be short-lived.
  - dangus 7y ago
kurthr 7y ago
Mortality due to overdose and suicide is rising... https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/u-s-death-rates-suicides-alcohol-drug-overdoses-reach-all-n1016216 https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/u-s-death-rates-s...
- klingonopera 7y ago
  Public perception of suicide is highly skewed, particularly because many journalists refuse to report cases to deter imitators, unless it cannot be avoided. While I understand the noble reasons behind it, I do raise an eyebrow considering the fact it can be convenient for a malfunctioning society to sweep it failings under the rug that way. On the other hand, I do feel slightly patronized, as if I weren't able to handle the "truth"...
  - UnFleshedOne 7y ago
    I guess existence of imitators and clusters does mean you are statistically not able to handle the truth. Deal with it :)
wybiral 7y ago
What about things like the pharmaceutical industry pumping out insane quantities of opiates? Or the gun lobbying industry trying to block regulations on registration and background checks? Or the crazy number of petrol-refinery incidents in recent years (which could probably be prevented with stricter regulations or monitoring but that would cut back on profits)? Or the links between social media and suicide rates? Or every industry lobbying against climate change related regulations? Or the Boeing 737 MAX incidents that could have probably been prevented with more training and stricter regulations (but, you know, those pesky profits)? Or the entire tobacco industry and links to cancer or other deadly conditions? I think it's pretty easy to make the case -for many companies- that "profits trump safety and any reason that stands in the way is ignored". The only things that stop this are regulations which make those dangerous practices less profitable or consumer backlash which make them less profitable. Either way, it's still always all about the profits.
- milesskorpen 7y ago
  Despite all this, the world is safer and healthier than ever before. It's slow going at times, and occasionally reverses temporarily, but there's steady progress.
  - wybiral 7y ago
    The potential damage of climate change and rise in mental health issues and gun violence stick out to me, but on average I do agree with you that we live longer and probably have higher quality of life now. Out of curiosity, do you think that's more a result of companies willfully choosing to reduce profits to be more ethical or because things are generally more regulated these days?
    - AnthonyMouse 7y ago
      > rise in mental health issues and gun violence stick out to me https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/02/14/most-americans-incorrectly-think-gun-homicides-have-gotten-worse-not-better/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/02/14/most-amer... Also note that the small uptick the last couple of years is closely aligned with the opioid epidemic, and even then is still basically flat since the turn of the century and down significantly from the peak in the early 1990s. Still possibly an example of companies choosing profits over lives, but the companies in this case are the drug companies.
okmokmz 7y ago
Those stats don't really mean anything to the statement that was made. Yes, due to technological, scientific, and social advancements many rates of death are decreasing. However, that does not at all invalidate that profits still trump safety in many industries and decisions worldwide
- kdmccormick 7y ago
  The original statement implied that profits always trump safety. The reply points out that, over time, safety has generally become more regarded. Of course there is still progress to be made, but it's silly to think that train crashes as dangerous as those in the article we be allowed in most of today's developed countries.
  - okmokmz 7y ago
    >The original statement implied that profits always trump safety. While that may be how you interpreted it, that isn't what he stated. Death rates of various causes have been decreasing primarily due to technological and medical advancements, not because people are more conscious of others safety or less focused on profits. Companies time and time again still choose the cheaper options over peoples safety. If you need evidence look at the oil/gas industry, the pharmaceutical industry, politicians, companies that manufacture products over seas for pennies on the dollar while employees kill themselves from stress, and countless others. You can even further apply this to tech companies such as Facebook, because while they may not be directly causing peoples deaths, they are having a major negative impact on society and constantly make declensions to maximize profits rather than look out for user safety and well being
    - iguy 7y ago
      It's certainly easy to find examples of profit trumping safety, if that's what you're after. But GP is correct that the overall balance is much more towards safety today than (say) 100 years ago. It's not really technological advances that sets how many people die to build a skyscraper (and medicine is equally helpless now as then). How many people die in factory fires etc. isn't about the owners being more or less greedy now, it's about whether the fire safety inspector has teeth, which is a political choice. And in a way a rational choice, too. Every such choice amounts in some way to putting a value on a life, and now that we are much wealthier, this implicit value is much higher.
fooblitzky 7y ago
Motor vehicle deaths are on the rise again, mostly due to distracted driving (phones) and larger vehicles on the road (SUVs). https://usa.streetsblog.org/2019/03/01/pedestrian-deaths-reach-another-high-drivers-entirely-to-blame/ https://usa.streetsblog.org/2019/03/01/pedestrian-deaths-rea...

by jopsen 7y ago

girvo 7y ago

One must only look at climate change for an example of what the parent commenter is talking about, I think.

Wohlf 7y ago

We live in the safest time ever, yet some people don't realize or refuse to believe it. I blame media bubbles.

salawat 7y ago
No, we don't. We live in a local minimum based on what we're actually well equipped to define and measure, and what people in positions of power are willing to treat as actionable information. Politics is swinging to the extremes, violence is changing it's clothes, taking on other less familiar forms. Trust in the system is at a low. Economic inequality is rife; infrastructure and the environment is approaching levels of instability previously unheard of. These aren't media bubbles. These are failures to maintain or achieve higher order awareness. All of these things are feeding into each other in myriad ways; they can't be reasoned in individual contexts for solutions. That's the thinking that got us where we are. They need to be reasoned about as a whole. Problems cannot be solved with the same level of thinking that created them in the first place.
- kube-system 7y ago
  If you are suggesting that we aren’t able to say we’re at all time lows due to a lack of good long term historical information, then you also can’t draw the opposite conclusion that we _aren’t_ at at an all time low. We simply don’t know. But I’d bet it’s highly unlikely that a lack of measurement and/or recording led to better results. I do agree that trust is probably at pretty low levels — exactly because communication is more accessible than any time in history and therefore people have more opportunity to question authority. But a lack in trust doesn’t translate directly to violence. I think that people are becoming very complacent with distrust. The daily media barrage of reasons to distrust so many things has reached the point where it doesn’t cause outrage anymore. It has convinced some people that distrust is normal.
  - y4mi 7y ago
    every issue salawat mentioned wasn't something that would result in violence and deaths today so its not refuted by citing current statistic. They're warnings for the future, because while its true that we're currently living in a pretty safe environment and are overall pretty well off, our children won't have that luxury. Once these issues actually start getting reflected in global statics, its going to be way too late to actually realistically pull this proverbial ship around. And he didn't even mention half of the things on the horizon with the potential to seriously harm society such as global warming and the evermore increasing amount of automation destroying the livelihood of a lot of people. (automation isn't bad, its just going to cause a lot of problems and unrest very soon)
    - iguy 7y ago
      Prediction is hard, especially about the future! What's clear is the data about the recent past, and the trends are very good, both for accidental and deliberate death (among other things) on a time-scale of decades to centuries. There are indeed some reversals (in the last few years: some kinds of crime, pedestrian deaths, opioids) which the optimists hope will be short-lived.
- dangus 7y ago

kurthr 7y ago

Mortality due to overdose and suicide is rising... https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/u-s-death-rates-suicides-alcohol-drug-overdoses-reach-all-n1016216 https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/u-s-death-rates-s...

klingonopera 7y ago
Public perception of suicide is highly skewed, particularly because many journalists refuse to report cases to deter imitators, unless it cannot be avoided. While I understand the noble reasons behind it, I do raise an eyebrow considering the fact it can be convenient for a malfunctioning society to sweep it failings under the rug that way. On the other hand, I do feel slightly patronized, as if I weren't able to handle the "truth"...
- UnFleshedOne 7y ago
  I guess existence of imitators and clusters does mean you are statistically not able to handle the truth. Deal with it :)

wybiral 7y ago

What about things like the pharmaceutical industry pumping out insane quantities of opiates? Or the gun lobbying industry trying to block regulations on registration and background checks? Or the crazy number of petrol-refinery incidents in recent years (which could probably be prevented with stricter regulations or monitoring but that would cut back on profits)? Or the links between social media and suicide rates? Or every industry lobbying against climate change related regulations? Or the Boeing 737 MAX incidents that could have probably been prevented with more training and stricter regulations (but, you know, those pesky profits)? Or the entire tobacco industry and links to cancer or other deadly conditions? I think it's pretty easy to make the case -for many companies- that "profits trump safety and any reason that stands in the way is ignored". The only things that stop this are regulations which make those dangerous practices less profitable or consumer backlash which make them less profitable. Either way, it's still always all about the profits.

milesskorpen 7y ago
Despite all this, the world is safer and healthier than ever before. It's slow going at times, and occasionally reverses temporarily, but there's steady progress.
- wybiral 7y ago
  The potential damage of climate change and rise in mental health issues and gun violence stick out to me, but on average I do agree with you that we live longer and probably have higher quality of life now. Out of curiosity, do you think that's more a result of companies willfully choosing to reduce profits to be more ethical or because things are generally more regulated these days?
  - AnthonyMouse 7y ago
    > rise in mental health issues and gun violence stick out to me https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/02/14/most-americans-incorrectly-think-gun-homicides-have-gotten-worse-not-better/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/02/14/most-amer... Also note that the small uptick the last couple of years is closely aligned with the opioid epidemic, and even then is still basically flat since the turn of the century and down significantly from the peak in the early 1990s. Still possibly an example of companies choosing profits over lives, but the companies in this case are the drug companies.

okmokmz 7y ago

Those stats don't really mean anything to the statement that was made. Yes, due to technological, scientific, and social advancements many rates of death are decreasing. However, that does not at all invalidate that profits still trump safety in many industries and decisions worldwide

kdmccormick 7y ago
The original statement implied that profits always trump safety. The reply points out that, over time, safety has generally become more regarded. Of course there is still progress to be made, but it's silly to think that train crashes as dangerous as those in the article we be allowed in most of today's developed countries.
- okmokmz 7y ago
  >The original statement implied that profits always trump safety. While that may be how you interpreted it, that isn't what he stated. Death rates of various causes have been decreasing primarily due to technological and medical advancements, not because people are more conscious of others safety or less focused on profits. Companies time and time again still choose the cheaper options over peoples safety. If you need evidence look at the oil/gas industry, the pharmaceutical industry, politicians, companies that manufacture products over seas for pennies on the dollar while employees kill themselves from stress, and countless others. You can even further apply this to tech companies such as Facebook, because while they may not be directly causing peoples deaths, they are having a major negative impact on society and constantly make declensions to maximize profits rather than look out for user safety and well being
  - iguy 7y ago
    It's certainly easy to find examples of profit trumping safety, if that's what you're after. But GP is correct that the overall balance is much more towards safety today than (say) 100 years ago. It's not really technological advances that sets how many people die to build a skyscraper (and medicine is equally helpless now as then). How many people die in factory fires etc. isn't about the owners being more or less greedy now, it's about whether the fire safety inspector has teeth, which is a political choice. And in a way a rational choice, too. Every such choice amounts in some way to putting a value on a life, and now that we are much wealthier, this implicit value is much higher.

fooblitzky 7y ago

Motor vehicle deaths are on the rise again, mostly due to distracted driving (phones) and larger vehicles on the road (SUVs). https://usa.streetsblog.org/2019/03/01/pedestrian-deaths-reach-another-high-drivers-entirely-to-blame/ https://usa.streetsblog.org/2019/03/01/pedestrian-deaths-rea...