12 ms·

There's two sides to everything. Have you looked at the downside of not eating meat?

by Kaiyou 7y ago

Deestan 7y ago
Assuming you adjust your diet instead of just subtracting meat (increase broccoli/beans/lentils/spinach for iron, etc), are there really any downsides? We've had vegetarians for a thousands of years, and I am not aware of have any health problems that are most efficiently solved by adding meat.
- kabouseng 7y ago
  Don't eat spinach for iron, spinach is a very poor source of iron...[1] [multiple other sources you can google as well] And vegetarians struggle quite a bit with getting proper dietary nutrition, not just with iron, but also Vitamin B12, Zinc, Omega-3 fatty acids, Vitamin D, Calcium, Protein and Riboflavin. So it is not quite just "simply" adjust your diet you lazy meat eater. [1] https://www.compoundchem.com/2018/07/17/spinach/ https://www.compoundchem.com/2018/07/17/spinach/
  - dashundchen 7y ago
    > And vegetarians struggle quite a bit with getting proper dietary nutrition, not just with iron, but also Vitamin B12, Zinc, Omega-3 fatty acids, Vitamin D, Calcium, Protein and Riboflavin. So it is not quite just "simply" adjust your diet you lazy meat eater. All of those listed able to be met easily by plant based sources with a well balanced diet. And it's not like the average meat American is eating a healthy diet. I would be shocked if the standard American diet actually met all recommended nutritional intakes. B12 is only in significant amounts of meat because it is heavily supplemented and present in the soil, today's clean produce strips most of those bacteria from the food supply.
    - mcv 7y ago
      B12 is the one I know a number of vegetarians have trouble getting from plant based sources. I've had trouble with it ages ago, and a friend of mine has been told by his doctor that he has to eat meat because of this. The solution is really simple, though: eat less meat. We don't need meat every day. Once or twice a week is more than enough, and if everybody did that, it would greatly reduce this problem.
      - the_gastropod 7y ago
        A doctor suggested eating meat to resolve a B12 deficiency? I find that strange. Low B12 is common among meat-eaters and vegetarians alike. It's a bacteria-byproduct and easily supplementable.
        mcv 7y ago
        This is the first time I've heard that. I know a number of vegetarians who specifically had b12 deficiency, and every single time, the answer was that we could only get b12 from animal products. One of them gets b12 supplements aware that it's the only animal product she consumes. I checked Wikipedia though, and it agrees with you, which makes me wonder even more why I've heard this exact same experience from several unconnected vegetarians.
      - mkbkn 7y ago
        Fermented foods like Idli can get you enough Vit B12. No need to eat meat.
      - jogjayr 7y ago
        Your friend couldn't take a B12 supplement?
        mcv 7y ago
        Apparently not. I don't know his medical details, though. Although I do wonder, if we're wrong about B12 only coming from animals, is it possible that we, or possible even Dutch physicians, are under-informed about our options?
  - mkbkn 7y ago
    > And vegetarians struggle quite a bit with getting proper dietary nutrition, not just with iron, but also Vitamin B12, Zinc, Omega-3 fatty acids, Vitamin D, Calcium, Protein and Riboflavin. So it is not quite just "simply" adjust your diet you lazy meat eater. I'm a vegetarian (yes, not a vegan yet) living in India and I'm not deficient in any of these. Also, never have been. e.g. take the case of protein, I eat pulses almost daily (and a variety of) with rice, never felt I have less protein than required. Vit B12 - you can get from fermented foods like Idli etc. Also, from the water soaked overnight in rice (actually rice is soaked in water). Vegetarianism had been practised in India since time immemorial. One can say the food has been perfected here to stay healthy.
  - asdff 7y ago
    Time for a multivitamin?
- 52-6F-62 7y ago
  I always have to pipe in here. I’m probably in a smaller contingent but I’m a male with a B12 and Iron deficiency and the most effective solution has been to eat more red meat (according to my doctor) while taking a daily sublingual methylcobalamin. Even with the supplement if I go too long without making sure I eat some red meat I start noticing the old side effects return. If I don’t I literally lose red blood cells and they’re not replenished. Not so good. It runs in my family. My poor mother is so bad that she has had to have a couple of blood transfusions because nothing else would bring her back from a bad state when she got there (the alternative being just lie down and die). Supplementation hasn’t helped her many times†. They also rarely eat red meat. Here’s hoping I or my sister don’t end up the same way. My sister has already devolved to anemic and has had her own complications with that. † edit: Rereading this it sounds confusing. I meant that supplementation has not helped her either prevent or recover from those cases until after the transfusion where her doctor stressed diet.
- naasking 7y ago
  > are there really any downsides? We've had vegetarians for a thousands of years Vegetarians are self-selected. We can have reasonably high confidence it would be fine, but we can't be sure, and some people literally will not be able to tolerate it. > I am not aware of have any health problems that are most efficiently solved by adding meat. Depends how you define "efficient". There are plenty of nutrients that are most concentrated in meat, such that small portions of meat can replace the need to consume large portions of plant matter.
tuesday20 7y ago
There are millions of vegetarians around the world who are perfectly healthy, my family included. Even if meat is super healthy, I sill doubt factory produced meat is good - with all its chemicals. I’d guess that most people eat meat because of its taste and because they were raised by their parents to eat meat, and not because they truly believe it is superior to vegetarian food
- hvidgaard 7y ago
  Meat and animal products is a good source for essential nutritional components that you have to make a conscious effort get from a pure plant base diet. The problem is not eating meat. It's the amount of meat people eat that's unsustainable.
  - the_gastropod 7y ago
    "I would have to think" isn't a very compelling argument here, imo. People eating the standard American diet don't have to think because: 1. That's the most popular diet, and foods have been fortified to add vitamins and minerals the diet tends to be deficient in. 2. Well, they're not exactly beacons of health, anyway. There are billions of vegetarians in the world. They tend to live longer and have lower rates of cancer and heart disease than their meat-eating counterparts. "Thinking" seems like worthwhile effort.
    - hvidgaard 7y ago
      Including poor people that cannot afford meat in this statistic make your argument seem like you're not serious. If we take India, which is the country with more vegetarians than the rest of the world combined. It's estimated that 30-40% are vegetarians. A country with a strong cultural history of vegetarianism, religious beliefs that vegetarianism is "right", have the most developed vegetarian cuisine, and a system that makes it super simple to see if something is vegetarian or not - 60-70% still eat meat. If you move to the coast less than 5% are strictly vegetarians. The issue is not consumption of meat - it's the amount. If you add nuts, beans, and protein heavy vegetables - a family of 4 can get by with 1-1.5kg of meat weekly and make sure all their micro nutrient needs are met without even trying. 1 day with fish, 1 day with red meat, and 1 day with white meat. It's a significantly more achievable goal than cutting meat all together, and it would probably result in a more healthy population than cutting meat all together because it covers all nutritional needs. > They tend to live longer and have lower rates of cancer and heart disease than their meat-eating counterparts As far as I've read it's not the meat that causes this, but the lack of vegetables, browning of meat, and addition of processed meat - so while a vegetarian diet solves the problem, you can retain meat in the diet and get the benefit anyway. If you have some peer reviewed scientific papers that show otherwise, I would like to see them because I have papers showing the opposite in abundance.
rb666 7y ago
There are plenty good meat replacements. Plus, you can also exchange some meat for fish. From a diet viewpoint, you can easily do with meat just once a week.

There's two sides to everything. Have you looked at the downside of not eating meat?

by Kaiyou 7y ago

There's two sides to everything. Have you looked at the downside of not eating meat?

Assuming you adjust your diet instead of just subtracting meat (increase broccoli/beans/lentils/spinach for iron, etc), are there really any downsides? We've had vegetarians for a thousands of years, and I am not aware of have any health problems that are most efficiently solved by adding meat.

kabouseng 7y ago
Don't eat spinach for iron, spinach is a very poor source of iron...[1] [multiple other sources you can google as well] And vegetarians struggle quite a bit with getting proper dietary nutrition, not just with iron, but also Vitamin B12, Zinc, Omega-3 fatty acids, Vitamin D, Calcium, Protein and Riboflavin. So it is not quite just "simply" adjust your diet you lazy meat eater. [1] https://www.compoundchem.com/2018/07/17/spinach/ https://www.compoundchem.com/2018/07/17/spinach/
- dashundchen 7y ago
  > And vegetarians struggle quite a bit with getting proper dietary nutrition, not just with iron, but also Vitamin B12, Zinc, Omega-3 fatty acids, Vitamin D, Calcium, Protein and Riboflavin. So it is not quite just "simply" adjust your diet you lazy meat eater. All of those listed able to be met easily by plant based sources with a well balanced diet. And it's not like the average meat American is eating a healthy diet. I would be shocked if the standard American diet actually met all recommended nutritional intakes. B12 is only in significant amounts of meat because it is heavily supplemented and present in the soil, today's clean produce strips most of those bacteria from the food supply.
  - mcv 7y ago
    B12 is the one I know a number of vegetarians have trouble getting from plant based sources. I've had trouble with it ages ago, and a friend of mine has been told by his doctor that he has to eat meat because of this. The solution is really simple, though: eat less meat. We don't need meat every day. Once or twice a week is more than enough, and if everybody did that, it would greatly reduce this problem.
    - the_gastropod 7y ago
      A doctor suggested eating meat to resolve a B12 deficiency? I find that strange. Low B12 is common among meat-eaters and vegetarians alike. It's a bacteria-byproduct and easily supplementable.
      - mcv 7y ago
        This is the first time I've heard that. I know a number of vegetarians who specifically had b12 deficiency, and every single time, the answer was that we could only get b12 from animal products. One of them gets b12 supplements aware that it's the only animal product she consumes. I checked Wikipedia though, and it agrees with you, which makes me wonder even more why I've heard this exact same experience from several unconnected vegetarians.
    - mkbkn 7y ago
      Fermented foods like Idli can get you enough Vit B12. No need to eat meat.
    - jogjayr 7y ago
      Your friend couldn't take a B12 supplement?
      - mcv 7y ago
        Apparently not. I don't know his medical details, though. Although I do wonder, if we're wrong about B12 only coming from animals, is it possible that we, or possible even Dutch physicians, are under-informed about our options?
- mkbkn 7y ago
  > And vegetarians struggle quite a bit with getting proper dietary nutrition, not just with iron, but also Vitamin B12, Zinc, Omega-3 fatty acids, Vitamin D, Calcium, Protein and Riboflavin. So it is not quite just "simply" adjust your diet you lazy meat eater. I'm a vegetarian (yes, not a vegan yet) living in India and I'm not deficient in any of these. Also, never have been. e.g. take the case of protein, I eat pulses almost daily (and a variety of) with rice, never felt I have less protein than required. Vit B12 - you can get from fermented foods like Idli etc. Also, from the water soaked overnight in rice (actually rice is soaked in water). Vegetarianism had been practised in India since time immemorial. One can say the food has been perfected here to stay healthy.
- asdff 7y ago
  Time for a multivitamin?
52-6F-62 7y ago
I always have to pipe in here. I’m probably in a smaller contingent but I’m a male with a B12 and Iron deficiency and the most effective solution has been to eat more red meat (according to my doctor) while taking a daily sublingual methylcobalamin. Even with the supplement if I go too long without making sure I eat some red meat I start noticing the old side effects return. If I don’t I literally lose red blood cells and they’re not replenished. Not so good. It runs in my family. My poor mother is so bad that she has had to have a couple of blood transfusions because nothing else would bring her back from a bad state when she got there (the alternative being just lie down and die). Supplementation hasn’t helped her many times†. They also rarely eat red meat. Here’s hoping I or my sister don’t end up the same way. My sister has already devolved to anemic and has had her own complications with that. † edit: Rereading this it sounds confusing. I meant that supplementation has not helped her either prevent or recover from those cases until after the transfusion where her doctor stressed diet.
naasking 7y ago
> are there really any downsides? We've had vegetarians for a thousands of years Vegetarians are self-selected. We can have reasonably high confidence it would be fine, but we can't be sure, and some people literally will not be able to tolerate it. > I am not aware of have any health problems that are most efficiently solved by adding meat. Depends how you define "efficient". There are plenty of nutrients that are most concentrated in meat, such that small portions of meat can replace the need to consume large portions of plant matter.

tuesday20 7y ago

There are millions of vegetarians around the world who are perfectly healthy, my family included. Even if meat is super healthy, I sill doubt factory produced meat is good - with all its chemicals. I’d guess that most people eat meat because of its taste and because they were raised by their parents to eat meat, and not because they truly believe it is superior to vegetarian food

hvidgaard 7y ago
Meat and animal products is a good source for essential nutritional components that you have to make a conscious effort get from a pure plant base diet. The problem is not eating meat. It's the amount of meat people eat that's unsustainable.
- the_gastropod 7y ago
  "I would have to think" isn't a very compelling argument here, imo. People eating the standard American diet don't have to think because: 1. That's the most popular diet, and foods have been fortified to add vitamins and minerals the diet tends to be deficient in. 2. Well, they're not exactly beacons of health, anyway. There are billions of vegetarians in the world. They tend to live longer and have lower rates of cancer and heart disease than their meat-eating counterparts. "Thinking" seems like worthwhile effort.
  - hvidgaard 7y ago
    Including poor people that cannot afford meat in this statistic make your argument seem like you're not serious. If we take India, which is the country with more vegetarians than the rest of the world combined. It's estimated that 30-40% are vegetarians. A country with a strong cultural history of vegetarianism, religious beliefs that vegetarianism is "right", have the most developed vegetarian cuisine, and a system that makes it super simple to see if something is vegetarian or not - 60-70% still eat meat. If you move to the coast less than 5% are strictly vegetarians. The issue is not consumption of meat - it's the amount. If you add nuts, beans, and protein heavy vegetables - a family of 4 can get by with 1-1.5kg of meat weekly and make sure all their micro nutrient needs are met without even trying. 1 day with fish, 1 day with red meat, and 1 day with white meat. It's a significantly more achievable goal than cutting meat all together, and it would probably result in a more healthy population than cutting meat all together because it covers all nutritional needs. > They tend to live longer and have lower rates of cancer and heart disease than their meat-eating counterparts As far as I've read it's not the meat that causes this, but the lack of vegetables, browning of meat, and addition of processed meat - so while a vegetarian diet solves the problem, you can retain meat in the diet and get the benefit anyway. If you have some peer reviewed scientific papers that show otherwise, I would like to see them because I have papers showing the opposite in abundance.

rb666 7y ago

There are plenty good meat replacements. Plus, you can also exchange some meat for fish. From a diet viewpoint, you can easily do with meat just once a week.