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I believe that the grandparent poster could be qualified as rather 'hawkish'. I hope truly that cooler heads are at the helm of international politics.

mistermann 7y ago
I find it fascinating how people's abstract (in their mind) philosophical opinions can change as you move a topic through different dimensions. Widespread realization of this phenomenon would make political change possible imho.
- VK538FY 7y ago
  Sure, but the guy to whom we are responding suggests implicitely that some hypothetical political meddling is an act of war that requires a war-like response -- twice with an identical comment, in fact. I don't think that I am poorly interpreting what he says. Both the US and Russia have meddled in other countries' politics but I will bet real money that the meddling of the US has ended in greater disaster that that of post-Soviet Russia. So move through the dimensions as you will -- this guy wants to let the missiles fly. Troll or completely barking mad, black or white.
  - mistermann 7y ago
    His words say just that indeed, but I doubt he realizes it. Propaganda works. Even the relatively intelligent are highly susceptible to it, as can be seen every single day on HN. And this particular propaganda is sowing the seeds for conflict not just between countries, but also within countries. With effort, discipline, and cooperation, I strongly believe something could be done about it. Certain people happen to be in unique positions to facilitate the start of this change, which could in turn alter the course of the humanity. But how one gets them to realize this is something I don't know how to do.
    - VK538FY 7y ago
      The people of whom you speak would need to be gifted communicators. I'm sure that there are some smart, well informed and well intentioned people on Hacker News that could argue for realistic, multipolar solutions. That said, it's an anglophone site for IT professionals. I feel that most political discussions are steered in the direction of 'good thinking' progressivism and neo-conservative interventionism. It's the majority demographic where many of those people live.
      - mistermann 7y ago
        > The people of whom you speak would need to be gifted communicators. Going about it one way yes, but not all ways. For example, if you could alter the HN guidelines to include new rules like: - do not state speculation as fact - be careful to not confuse beliefs based on facts with beliefs based on heuristics - just as you realize it is foolish to say "people of ethnicity X do (or will do) Y", also realize it is similarly foolish (in most cases) to say things about various groups of people. Realize that you cannot read minds and cannot predict the future, so do not do it in comments. - be mindful that there's a difference between fact and opinion, and it's often very difficult to tell the difference (errors hidden in axioms, etc) - do not lie; try to not write untruths - etc (I can't recall all the ideas I've had over time) If you made some reasonable changes like this, and actually enforced them, do you think it would not (could not?) make a change? Perhaps the very idea seems absurd, but if you stop and think about it for a while, is it really? You can go into any non-technical thread, and it is full of utterly delusional statements, and it keeps getting worse. I simply cannot believe people as intelligent as those who frequent HN are not capable of significantly decreasing this behavior. I also don't see a plausible way that this problem gets fixed otherwise. Perhaps some amazingly persuasive enlightened guru could spring onto the world scene and wake people up, but I have a feeling he wouldn't get a very warm reception, from a wide variety of powerful people.
        mistermann 7y ago
        > You can go into any non-technical thread, and it is full of utterly delusional statements An even better example (although, the "delusional" charge is a bit heavy in this case): I was wrong about spreadsheets - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20417967 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20417967 Even here, in a largely objective domain, one can clearly see a variety of strong "statements of fact" (or so the author believes), but if one was to dig down into each, I suspect you would likely find that the erroneous thinking ultimately resides at the axioms (heuristics) level. I would love to know if you even somewhat see what I'm getting at, or if this sounds like some form of batshit insanity. Most anyone I run into seems to have a strong aversion to this type of thinking, kind of similar to how people seem to have a natural aversion to certain conversations (discussions in "polite company" that go into too much detail about sex, for example).

mistermann 7y ago

I find it fascinating how people's abstract (in their mind) philosophical opinions can change as you move a topic through different dimensions. Widespread realization of this phenomenon would make political change possible imho.

VK538FY 7y ago
Sure, but the guy to whom we are responding suggests implicitely that some hypothetical political meddling is an act of war that requires a war-like response -- twice with an identical comment, in fact. I don't think that I am poorly interpreting what he says. Both the US and Russia have meddled in other countries' politics but I will bet real money that the meddling of the US has ended in greater disaster that that of post-Soviet Russia. So move through the dimensions as you will -- this guy wants to let the missiles fly. Troll or completely barking mad, black or white.
- mistermann 7y ago
  His words say just that indeed, but I doubt he realizes it. Propaganda works. Even the relatively intelligent are highly susceptible to it, as can be seen every single day on HN. And this particular propaganda is sowing the seeds for conflict not just between countries, but also within countries. With effort, discipline, and cooperation, I strongly believe something could be done about it. Certain people happen to be in unique positions to facilitate the start of this change, which could in turn alter the course of the humanity. But how one gets them to realize this is something I don't know how to do.
  - VK538FY 7y ago
    The people of whom you speak would need to be gifted communicators. I'm sure that there are some smart, well informed and well intentioned people on Hacker News that could argue for realistic, multipolar solutions. That said, it's an anglophone site for IT professionals. I feel that most political discussions are steered in the direction of 'good thinking' progressivism and neo-conservative interventionism. It's the majority demographic where many of those people live.
    - mistermann 7y ago
      > The people of whom you speak would need to be gifted communicators. Going about it one way yes, but not all ways. For example, if you could alter the HN guidelines to include new rules like: - do not state speculation as fact - be careful to not confuse beliefs based on facts with beliefs based on heuristics - just as you realize it is foolish to say "people of ethnicity X do (or will do) Y", also realize it is similarly foolish (in most cases) to say things about various groups of people. Realize that you cannot read minds and cannot predict the future, so do not do it in comments. - be mindful that there's a difference between fact and opinion, and it's often very difficult to tell the difference (errors hidden in axioms, etc) - do not lie; try to not write untruths - etc (I can't recall all the ideas I've had over time) If you made some reasonable changes like this, and actually enforced them, do you think it would not (could not?) make a change? Perhaps the very idea seems absurd, but if you stop and think about it for a while, is it really? You can go into any non-technical thread, and it is full of utterly delusional statements, and it keeps getting worse. I simply cannot believe people as intelligent as those who frequent HN are not capable of significantly decreasing this behavior. I also don't see a plausible way that this problem gets fixed otherwise. Perhaps some amazingly persuasive enlightened guru could spring onto the world scene and wake people up, but I have a feeling he wouldn't get a very warm reception, from a wide variety of powerful people.
      - mistermann 7y ago
        > You can go into any non-technical thread, and it is full of utterly delusional statements An even better example (although, the "delusional" charge is a bit heavy in this case): I was wrong about spreadsheets - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20417967 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20417967 Even here, in a largely objective domain, one can clearly see a variety of strong "statements of fact" (or so the author believes), but if one was to dig down into each, I suspect you would likely find that the erroneous thinking ultimately resides at the axioms (heuristics) level. I would love to know if you even somewhat see what I'm getting at, or if this sounds like some form of batshit insanity. Most anyone I run into seems to have a strong aversion to this type of thinking, kind of similar to how people seem to have a natural aversion to certain conversations (discussions in "polite company" that go into too much detail about sex, for example).