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Emergency Response to the Tesla Model 3 [video]

Someone1234 7y ago
I wonder if we'll see more standardization in electric vehicles so that fire departments don't need specific vehicle training to know what to cut and where. Although we haven't seen that yet with hybrids (that also contain potentially hazardous batteries) that have been around longer.
- phkahler 7y ago
  Typically there is a relay at the battery to cut high voltage to the rest of the vehicle. Also, some components have requirements to discharge internal capacitance (and hence the bus) in a short time. A crash should trigger all this, but I suppose from a safety POV you can never be completely certain.
  - benj111 7y ago
    I was thinking internal fuses for each cell, then you've nothing worse than a couple of volts.
- imglorp 7y ago
  I wonder this too. Military jets have a "RESCUE" lever by the canopy to disarm the ejection seats. I wonder why cars don't have something standard and simple like that. If every car model needs unique training on what secret cuts to make in what order, that's a fail.
  - toomuchtodo 7y ago
    Tesla vehicles disengage the high voltage contactors when an accident is detected. You still don't want to cut through parts that can't be de-energized (ie do not push through the floor pan into your energy storage system). There is also a "first responder cut loop" which does the same, similar to the mentioned "RESCUE" lever on an aircraft cockpit.
    - avs733 7y ago
      >Tesla vehicles disengage the high voltage contactors when an accident is detected. Great! Is there a visual indication that has occurred (see for example F1: https://www.racecar-engineering.com/tech-explained/f1-2014-explained-what-are-the-lights-on-the-roll-hoop-for/ https://www.racecar-engineering.com/tech-explained/f1-2014-e...). If not, >You still don't want to cut through parts that can't be de-energized (ie do not push through the floor pan into your energy storage system). You're right! That's why these things are standardized and labeled (http://www.solotogrouptravel.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Sign-on-Peru-Airplane.jpg http://www.solotogrouptravel.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/...) >There is also a "first responder cut loop" which does the same, similar to the mentioned "RESCUE" lever on an aircraft cockpit. The point isn't the function it's the labeling. As noted in other discussions (https://jalopnik.com/tesla-model-3-teardown-by-engineering-firm-reveals-qual-1822678045 https://jalopnik.com/tesla-model-3-teardown-by-engineering-f...) of the model 3...there are no externally visible markers of where to cut until you open or remove panels and the markings themselves are unclear. The front first responder loop requires a 12V battery be connected to the vehicle if the frunk won't open under vehicle power. None of this is about whether or not such systems exist...all of this is about the design and indication necessary of those systems in emergency situations. All F1 cars have different manufacturers...but they all have the same iconography and processes for disarming potentially energized systems (e.g., put the car in neutral, put out a fire, check if car is electrically safe). That commonality means it is easy to train first responders AND for first responders to know what to/not to do in an emergency.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - brooksgarrett 7y ago
        I'm willing to bet my Hurst spreaders will get the frunk open sans battery. If you're cutting the car, it's already totaled and limiting damage to the frunk would be the last concern on my mind.
        mrpippy 7y ago
  - HeWhoLurksLate 7y ago
    I don't think I want to have a "kill power" switch on the side of my vehicle where a random up-to-no-good kid (or adult) can kill power to my car while I'm driving it. Disclaimer: I ride a bike.
    - nexuist 7y ago
      For what it's worth, there actually are kill switches on the sides of the ICE buses that service my university campus. Opening the little hatch and pushing the button disconnects power from the battery and kills the engine. I imagine it's useful in situations where the engine has caught fire and you need to stop fuel flow ASAP. I've never heard of people abusing it, probably because everyone on board the bus including the driver could easily ID the wrongdoer. Of course, private personal vehicles are a different story.
  - Animats 7y ago
    Most US electric cars now have a cable marked with a yellow and red first responder cut point tag. You can see that briefly in the video. You cut the cable on both sides of the tag, so that the remaining ends can't touch, and the battery is isolated. There are where-to-cut guides.[1] [1] https://www.ncdoi.com/OSFM/RPD/PT/Documents/Coursework/EV_SafetyTraining/EV%20EFG%20Classroom%20Edition.pdf https://www.ncdoi.com/OSFM/RPD/PT/Documents/Coursework/EV_Sa...
    - imglorp 7y ago
      I think you also want to disable unfired airbags after the car has stopped crashing. There are cases where rescuers leaned in on passenger side, putting pressure on seat, and had the airbag deploy on them. I think there's other concerns that cutting door sills can cause deployments. Oh and killing the engine would be good too.
- toss1 7y ago
  In amateur and pro sportscar racing, all cars are required to have a prominent kill switch that cuts the main power from the electrical system, and this is just with 12V ignition and accessory systems. It's always seemed like a great idea , and I expect that the only reason it isn't done in ordinary street cars is that the companies never liked reminding people of the potential of accidents (with some exception by Volvo & occasional others selling superior safety).
nimbius 7y ago
Interesting. Tesla seems like a lot more cumbersome vehicle to perform dash evolution/extrication due to the presence of the high voltage battery. for example, in a traditional vehicle, a dashbeam blowout is performed using a higher speed ram. Without this, you have to make 3-4 more cuts to the vehicle https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-n65nm5yQKs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-n65nm5yQKs Tesla model access for the rocker channel is also inconsistent and a little scary. Rocker cuts made to the X for example seem to be permitted, however in the model S they might be lethal. I really wish they had more in the series on this. disclosure: I was a volunteer firefighter for a few years after highschool.
- jkingsman 7y ago
  What's a rocker channel?
  - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
    Rocker panel. Edit: Why is this down voted? It it literally the same thing. The firemen may call it a channel (and the sheet-metal is roughly of a shape that people in the metal industry would refer to as a "channel") but the terms are interchangeable, it's the lower outboard edge of the passenger cabin.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
      It’s not a very informative comment. The obvious next question is: what’s a rocker panel?
      - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
        That's an easily answerable question. Everyone here has an internet connection. Swapping an obscure term for an industry standard term should be enough to make search engines useful. If I wanted to spoon feed people I'd go to Reddit.
        7y ago
jedberg 7y ago
I know it's necessary for safety, but it always makes me sad to see cars destroyed for crash tests and fire safety testing.
- JCBird1012 7y ago
  If you look closely, it appears the Model 3 they used in the dash displacement later on in the video had some damage on the sides — it may have already been salvaged or totaled. At least they made good use of a basically dead vehicle assuming that's true.
- ev0lv 7y ago
  Use the sadness as motivation to start a VR project which enables fire fighters to simulate safety training? :)
Rebelgecko 7y ago
Imagine if first responders had to watch a 20 minute video for each of the several hundred models of cars that are on the roads. Doesn't seem like a scalable approach.
- brooksgarrett 7y ago
  We don't. It's a cool video for a training night but really it's a pretty standard dash roll. Electric cars present a very real danger but so do ICE. High pressure fuel lines with pumps that don't shut down. Diesel engines which "runaway" with air intake leaks. Every call is a special situation where you start with a baseline tactic and evolve the approach as needed. 20 minutes is overkill but the whole time we were watching it here we were discussing extrication in general. "Would you do this or that? What would you look for here? Did you see their step cribbing placement?" The Tesla responder guide is awesome and available online and is all you "need" to know where and what to cut. The video is more a conversation starter.

I wonder if we'll see more standardization in electric vehicles so that fire departments don't need specific vehicle training to know what to cut and where. Although we haven't seen that yet with hybrids (that also contain potentially hazardous batteries) that have been around longer.

phkahler 7y ago
Typically there is a relay at the battery to cut high voltage to the rest of the vehicle. Also, some components have requirements to discharge internal capacitance (and hence the bus) in a short time. A crash should trigger all this, but I suppose from a safety POV you can never be completely certain.
- benj111 7y ago
  I was thinking internal fuses for each cell, then you've nothing worse than a couple of volts.
imglorp 7y ago
I wonder this too. Military jets have a "RESCUE" lever by the canopy to disarm the ejection seats. I wonder why cars don't have something standard and simple like that. If every car model needs unique training on what secret cuts to make in what order, that's a fail.
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  Tesla vehicles disengage the high voltage contactors when an accident is detected. You still don't want to cut through parts that can't be de-energized (ie do not push through the floor pan into your energy storage system). There is also a "first responder cut loop" which does the same, similar to the mentioned "RESCUE" lever on an aircraft cockpit.
  - avs733 7y ago
    >Tesla vehicles disengage the high voltage contactors when an accident is detected. Great! Is there a visual indication that has occurred (see for example F1: https://www.racecar-engineering.com/tech-explained/f1-2014-explained-what-are-the-lights-on-the-roll-hoop-for/ https://www.racecar-engineering.com/tech-explained/f1-2014-e...). If not, >You still don't want to cut through parts that can't be de-energized (ie do not push through the floor pan into your energy storage system). You're right! That's why these things are standardized and labeled (http://www.solotogrouptravel.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Sign-on-Peru-Airplane.jpg http://www.solotogrouptravel.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/...) >There is also a "first responder cut loop" which does the same, similar to the mentioned "RESCUE" lever on an aircraft cockpit. The point isn't the function it's the labeling. As noted in other discussions (https://jalopnik.com/tesla-model-3-teardown-by-engineering-firm-reveals-qual-1822678045 https://jalopnik.com/tesla-model-3-teardown-by-engineering-f...) of the model 3...there are no externally visible markers of where to cut until you open or remove panels and the markings themselves are unclear. The front first responder loop requires a 12V battery be connected to the vehicle if the frunk won't open under vehicle power. None of this is about whether or not such systems exist...all of this is about the design and indication necessary of those systems in emergency situations. All F1 cars have different manufacturers...but they all have the same iconography and processes for disarming potentially energized systems (e.g., put the car in neutral, put out a fire, check if car is electrically safe). That commonality means it is easy to train first responders AND for first responders to know what to/not to do in an emergency.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - brooksgarrett 7y ago
      I'm willing to bet my Hurst spreaders will get the frunk open sans battery. If you're cutting the car, it's already totaled and limiting damage to the frunk would be the last concern on my mind.
      - mrpippy 7y ago
- HeWhoLurksLate 7y ago
  I don't think I want to have a "kill power" switch on the side of my vehicle where a random up-to-no-good kid (or adult) can kill power to my car while I'm driving it. Disclaimer: I ride a bike.
  - nexuist 7y ago
    For what it's worth, there actually are kill switches on the sides of the ICE buses that service my university campus. Opening the little hatch and pushing the button disconnects power from the battery and kills the engine. I imagine it's useful in situations where the engine has caught fire and you need to stop fuel flow ASAP. I've never heard of people abusing it, probably because everyone on board the bus including the driver could easily ID the wrongdoer. Of course, private personal vehicles are a different story.
- Animats 7y ago
  Most US electric cars now have a cable marked with a yellow and red first responder cut point tag. You can see that briefly in the video. You cut the cable on both sides of the tag, so that the remaining ends can't touch, and the battery is isolated. There are where-to-cut guides.[1] [1] https://www.ncdoi.com/OSFM/RPD/PT/Documents/Coursework/EV_SafetyTraining/EV%20EFG%20Classroom%20Edition.pdf https://www.ncdoi.com/OSFM/RPD/PT/Documents/Coursework/EV_Sa...
  - imglorp 7y ago
    I think you also want to disable unfired airbags after the car has stopped crashing. There are cases where rescuers leaned in on passenger side, putting pressure on seat, and had the airbag deploy on them. I think there's other concerns that cutting door sills can cause deployments. Oh and killing the engine would be good too.
toss1 7y ago
In amateur and pro sportscar racing, all cars are required to have a prominent kill switch that cuts the main power from the electrical system, and this is just with 12V ignition and accessory systems. It's always seemed like a great idea , and I expect that the only reason it isn't done in ordinary street cars is that the companies never liked reminding people of the potential of accidents (with some exception by Volvo & occasional others selling superior safety).

nimbius 7y ago

Interesting. Tesla seems like a lot more cumbersome vehicle to perform dash evolution/extrication due to the presence of the high voltage battery. for example, in a traditional vehicle, a dashbeam blowout is performed using a higher speed ram. Without this, you have to make 3-4 more cuts to the vehicle https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-n65nm5yQKs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-n65nm5yQKs Tesla model access for the rocker channel is also inconsistent and a little scary. Rocker cuts made to the X for example seem to be permitted, however in the model S they might be lethal. I really wish they had more in the series on this. disclosure: I was a volunteer firefighter for a few years after highschool.

jkingsman 7y ago
What's a rocker channel?
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  Rocker panel. Edit: Why is this down voted? It it literally the same thing. The firemen may call it a channel (and the sheet-metal is roughly of a shape that people in the metal industry would refer to as a "channel") but the terms are interchangeable, it's the lower outboard edge of the passenger cabin.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
    It’s not a very informative comment. The obvious next question is: what’s a rocker panel?
    - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
      That's an easily answerable question. Everyone here has an internet connection. Swapping an obscure term for an industry standard term should be enough to make search engines useful. If I wanted to spoon feed people I'd go to Reddit.
      - 7y ago

jedberg 7y ago

I know it's necessary for safety, but it always makes me sad to see cars destroyed for crash tests and fire safety testing.

JCBird1012 7y ago
If you look closely, it appears the Model 3 they used in the dash displacement later on in the video had some damage on the sides — it may have already been salvaged or totaled. At least they made good use of a basically dead vehicle assuming that's true.
ev0lv 7y ago
Use the sadness as motivation to start a VR project which enables fire fighters to simulate safety training? :)

Rebelgecko 7y ago

Imagine if first responders had to watch a 20 minute video for each of the several hundred models of cars that are on the roads. Doesn't seem like a scalable approach.

brooksgarrett 7y ago
We don't. It's a cool video for a training night but really it's a pretty standard dash roll. Electric cars present a very real danger but so do ICE. High pressure fuel lines with pumps that don't shut down. Diesel engines which "runaway" with air intake leaks. Every call is a special situation where you start with a baseline tactic and evolve the approach as needed. 20 minutes is overkill but the whole time we were watching it here we were discussing extrication in general. "Would you do this or that? What would you look for here? Did you see their step cribbing placement?" The Tesla responder guide is awesome and available online and is all you "need" to know where and what to cut. The video is more a conversation starter.