6 ms·

This reminds me of people who say that we can free North Koreans by (physically) airdropping tapes and books on Pyongyang - surely the only reason they support

by scilro 7y ago

This reminds me of people who say that we can free North Koreans by (physically) airdropping tapes and books on Pyongyang - surely the only reason they support their government is because they're heavily censored, once they see the truth they'll rise up in arms! It's a narrative that's somewhat condescending. It makes it seem like all these people are just being held hostage by their governments. The reality is that people in China or North Korea are like people everywhere else -- either they're deeply uninterested in politics, or they are, in which case they probably have a more sophisticated view of these issues than assumed. Some information freely available via VPN isn't going to change anyone's mind.

theothermkn 7y ago
I think the real reason that airdropping information into North Korea won't help is that it's a slave state held hostage by a ruling family that secures aid for itself with the threat of nuclear Armageddon and the immediate shelling of Seoul. But this is also the reason that the sophistication or lack thereof of their political belief systems is irrelevant: These are not participatory governments. I would highly recommend The Dictator's Handbook by Bruce Bueno de Mesquita and Alastair Smith for a reset of one's political expectations, especially for countries with resource extraction economies. The mechanics of selectorate theory can be very, very brutal.
420codebro 7y ago
Having a tenancy to send an entire family (and future generations) to a forced labor camp for trivial "violations" tends to make people STFU. I have no doubt that people in North Korea know there is an outside world that is a little less fucked up. Do they (at an individual level) have an empowerment to enact change? Lol that's a good one.
Forge36 7y ago
I mean, we do physically drop in banned media. https://www.google.com/amp/s/gizmodo.com/how-one-group-is-infiltrating-north-korea-with-usb-driv-1502225423/amp https://www.google.com/amp/s/gizmodo.com/how-one-group-is-in... Information spreads. Some people defect. Whether this effort helps is hard to measure. That it's succeeding shows many people are interested and change is possible/desired.
duguxu 7y ago
Most protesters never try to investigate the real thoughts of ordinary mainland people, who are just regarded as a stereotype of ignorance, impoliteness, nouveau riche, and pathetically waiting to be enlightened. Protesters know mainland people as little as, if not less than, ordinary mainland people know them. This is not a big deal in daily life, but could severely diminish the effect of the propaganda towards mainland visitors.
- rlue 7y ago
  This comment is based on the peculiar notions that 1) it is possible to intimately understand the thoughts of over a billion people and 2) this understanding is necessary for propaganda to achieve its effect. More importantly, it quietly dismisses the vast moral chasm between the CCP's propaganda and that of the protesters. One aims to restrict information (and spread misinformation) to advance the control of a state over its people, while the other aims to expose that restricted information to protect civil liberties.
  - duguxu 7y ago
    Correct me if I'm wrong, this is a political movement aiming at winning more support and allies from people of mainland China, and hence putting more pressure on the government. My comment just points out there are some negative factors for current organizers. They could have done better. Information freedom is politically correct, but that doesn't mean tactics or investigation isn't important before conveying information to certain group of people to achieve a political goal practically. Btw, CCP puts great stress on these two peculiar notions. Propaganda appears far more than restriction and misinformation.
    - tempguy9999 7y ago
      > They [the current organizers]could have done better Interesting. Very specifically, how?
      - duguxu 7y ago
gpm 7y ago
If freely available information doesn't change peoples minds why do dictatorships try so hard to ban it? That's not to say that any amount of information would cause the North Korean's to rise up into a (frankly suicidal) armed rebellion, but it will influence opinions inside the country.

by scilro 7y ago

theothermkn 7y ago

I think the real reason that airdropping information into North Korea won't help is that it's a slave state held hostage by a ruling family that secures aid for itself with the threat of nuclear Armageddon and the immediate shelling of Seoul. But this is also the reason that the sophistication or lack thereof of their political belief systems is irrelevant: These are not participatory governments. I would highly recommend The Dictator's Handbook by Bruce Bueno de Mesquita and Alastair Smith for a reset of one's political expectations, especially for countries with resource extraction economies. The mechanics of selectorate theory can be very, very brutal.

420codebro 7y ago

Having a tenancy to send an entire family (and future generations) to a forced labor camp for trivial "violations" tends to make people STFU. I have no doubt that people in North Korea know there is an outside world that is a little less fucked up. Do they (at an individual level) have an empowerment to enact change? Lol that's a good one.

Forge36 7y ago

I mean, we do physically drop in banned media. https://www.google.com/amp/s/gizmodo.com/how-one-group-is-infiltrating-north-korea-with-usb-driv-1502225423/amp https://www.google.com/amp/s/gizmodo.com/how-one-group-is-in... Information spreads. Some people defect. Whether this effort helps is hard to measure. That it's succeeding shows many people are interested and change is possible/desired.

duguxu 7y ago

Most protesters never try to investigate the real thoughts of ordinary mainland people, who are just regarded as a stereotype of ignorance, impoliteness, nouveau riche, and pathetically waiting to be enlightened. Protesters know mainland people as little as, if not less than, ordinary mainland people know them. This is not a big deal in daily life, but could severely diminish the effect of the propaganda towards mainland visitors.

rlue 7y ago
This comment is based on the peculiar notions that 1) it is possible to intimately understand the thoughts of over a billion people and 2) this understanding is necessary for propaganda to achieve its effect. More importantly, it quietly dismisses the vast moral chasm between the CCP's propaganda and that of the protesters. One aims to restrict information (and spread misinformation) to advance the control of a state over its people, while the other aims to expose that restricted information to protect civil liberties.
- duguxu 7y ago
  Correct me if I'm wrong, this is a political movement aiming at winning more support and allies from people of mainland China, and hence putting more pressure on the government. My comment just points out there are some negative factors for current organizers. They could have done better. Information freedom is politically correct, but that doesn't mean tactics or investigation isn't important before conveying information to certain group of people to achieve a political goal practically. Btw, CCP puts great stress on these two peculiar notions. Propaganda appears far more than restriction and misinformation.
  - tempguy9999 7y ago
    > They [the current organizers]could have done better Interesting. Very specifically, how?
    - duguxu 7y ago

gpm 7y ago

If freely available information doesn't change peoples minds why do dictatorships try so hard to ban it? That's not to say that any amount of information would cause the North Korean's to rise up into a (frankly suicidal) armed rebellion, but it will influence opinions inside the country.