3 ms·

I think they're all valid points worth debating but wrt this article's framing, the contents of the AirDrop don't seem to have anything to do with the Hong Kong

by xster 7y ago

I think they're all valid points worth debating but wrt this article's framing, the contents of the AirDrop don't seem to have anything to do with the Hong Kong protests. Infant milk powder, train ticket score etc could just as well be in random Falun Gong pamphlets you get in Chinatowns abroad. At this point, I'm not even sure the protest (communist black helicopters will come pick you up to CCP black sites where you'll get waterboarded for criticizing China) has anything to with the thing being protested (extradition for crimes punishable under HK laws with 7+ years in prison (which criticizing China hopefully is not)), but that's a different story.

lnanek2 7y ago
Last article I read said the mainland had a 99% conviction rate. Anyone going over there isn't getting a fair trial. They'll just be canned and counted as some official's crime fighting spree no matter if they did it or not or whatever political purpose their bodies can be put to.
- xster 7y ago
  The mainland conviction rate doesn't matter. It's about the HK criminal laws and whether the case in question was sentenced a 7 year prison term under HK law before extradition is even in question (if it's simultaneously a crime under the target country's law).
- yskchu 7y ago
  High conviction rate is not something unique to China - Canada and Japan are also at 97% and 99% respectively https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conviction_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conviction_rate
  - Engineering-MD 7y ago
    The difference is the conviction rate in China is over 10 times higher than that at 99.9% [1,2] and thought to be driven by political interference/corruption rather than only targeting high yield cases. Bear in mind the context of china’s top court rejecting the notion of an independent judiciary [3], it is clear there is a difference between a high conviction rate in these countries and China. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/03/11/china-scored-99-9-percent-conviction-rate-last-year/?noredirect=on https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/03/1... [2] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/12193202/Chinese-courts-convict-more-than-99.9-per-cent-of-defendants.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/121932... [3] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/26/chinas-top-court-rejects-judicial-independence-as-erroneous-thought https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/26/chinas-top-cou...
    - yskchu 7y ago
      >The difference is the conviction rate in China is over 10 times higher Actually, it's not over 10 times higher; I double checked, Japan's is also 99.9% and has been for some time. From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_justice_system_of_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_justice_system_of_Jap... Statistics from Wikipedia link: http://hakusyo1.moj.go.jp/en/61/image/image/h002003001001h.jpg http://hakusyo1.moj.go.jp/en/61/image/image/h002003001001h.j... If you just take guilty/not guilty, the % is actually 99.98% in Japan (e.g. 2011, 77 Not Guilty, 432,050 Guilty)
      - Engineering-MD 7y ago
        That’s interesting, thanks for the correction. That’s actually also concerning. Either they are are prosecuting enough people, and letting criminals go free, or the legal system is broken (or perhaps a huge cultural difference I’m missing). What is the point in hiring a defence lawyer if the chance of successful defence is so low? I can’t think of any test in my area of expertise (medicine) that has such a high success rate, meaning that false positives must be much too high for comfort.
hker 7y ago
The above framing is missing a key point: after the “introduction” on milk powder, train ticket score, etc, the AirDrop contains the main message on the anti-extradition protest, which in the article is the content of second tweet by Aria Hangyu Chen for those who read Chinese. The “introduction” is necessary, to show consequences that the rule by law in China is lacking independent jurisdiction and respect for constitution, so as to support opposing the extradition into China to face its inadequate legal system—that is, if the legal system in China is on par with elsewhere, there is less reason to oppose extradition into China. Also, it is much harder to explain abstract concepts such as democracy and rule of law to mainlanders, given the heavy censorship and disinformation (e.g. those peaceful revolution such as Arabic Spring is staged by the US) in China, than to explain concrete examples that affect their daily life such as poisonous milk powder. And in recent protests in July the focus on true democracy—universal suffrage for both the legislative council and the Chief Executive by 2022—is to address the root cause of all major protests (e.g. anti-national-security-law protest in 2003, anti-restricted-democracy umbrella protest in 2014, anti-extradition protest in 2019), where the government was trying to pass law despite strong opposition in public opinion to serve the interests of Beijing over Hong Kongers. Without addressing the root cause, the lack of accountable democracy, Hong Kongers need a big protest once every five years or so, which is not solving the problem. The focus on democracy in recent protest is to break this infinite loop, and is about the bigger picture. To downvoters: please explain your rationale so we can have a civil conversation.
Arn_Thor 7y ago
> At this point, I'm not even sure the protest (communist black helicopters will come pick you up to CCP black sites where you'll get waterboarded for criticizing China) has anything to with the thing being protested (extradition for crimes punishable under HK laws with 7+ years in prison (which criticizing China hopefully is not)), but that's a different story. Two points on this.. 1) Hong Kong citizens have been kidnapped from Hong Kong to the mainland by the Chinese government, for working in a bookstore selling anti-mainland literature. This isn't some theoretical exercise, it's as real as it gets. The extradition law would to some extent legitimize the illegal breach of the two-systems policy. 2) Once in force, the HK gov could easily ram through the anti-sedition bill they've got in waiting or similar "national security" legislation, leaving people vulnerable to being extradited for speaking against the mainland. Second, Beijing is famous for revealing dissidents' "crimes" (real or often fake) committed on the mainland and demanding they be extradited there.

by xster 7y ago

lnanek2 7y ago

Last article I read said the mainland had a 99% conviction rate. Anyone going over there isn't getting a fair trial. They'll just be canned and counted as some official's crime fighting spree no matter if they did it or not or whatever political purpose their bodies can be put to.

xster 7y ago
The mainland conviction rate doesn't matter. It's about the HK criminal laws and whether the case in question was sentenced a 7 year prison term under HK law before extradition is even in question (if it's simultaneously a crime under the target country's law).
yskchu 7y ago
High conviction rate is not something unique to China - Canada and Japan are also at 97% and 99% respectively https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conviction_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conviction_rate
- Engineering-MD 7y ago
  The difference is the conviction rate in China is over 10 times higher than that at 99.9% [1,2] and thought to be driven by political interference/corruption rather than only targeting high yield cases. Bear in mind the context of china’s top court rejecting the notion of an independent judiciary [3], it is clear there is a difference between a high conviction rate in these countries and China. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/03/11/china-scored-99-9-percent-conviction-rate-last-year/?noredirect=on https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/03/1... [2] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/12193202/Chinese-courts-convict-more-than-99.9-per-cent-of-defendants.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/121932... [3] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/26/chinas-top-court-rejects-judicial-independence-as-erroneous-thought https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/26/chinas-top-cou...
  - yskchu 7y ago
    >The difference is the conviction rate in China is over 10 times higher Actually, it's not over 10 times higher; I double checked, Japan's is also 99.9% and has been for some time. From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_justice_system_of_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_justice_system_of_Jap... Statistics from Wikipedia link: http://hakusyo1.moj.go.jp/en/61/image/image/h002003001001h.jpg http://hakusyo1.moj.go.jp/en/61/image/image/h002003001001h.j... If you just take guilty/not guilty, the % is actually 99.98% in Japan (e.g. 2011, 77 Not Guilty, 432,050 Guilty)
    - Engineering-MD 7y ago
      That’s interesting, thanks for the correction. That’s actually also concerning. Either they are are prosecuting enough people, and letting criminals go free, or the legal system is broken (or perhaps a huge cultural difference I’m missing). What is the point in hiring a defence lawyer if the chance of successful defence is so low? I can’t think of any test in my area of expertise (medicine) that has such a high success rate, meaning that false positives must be much too high for comfort.

hker 7y ago

The above framing is missing a key point: after the “introduction” on milk powder, train ticket score, etc, the AirDrop contains the main message on the anti-extradition protest, which in the article is the content of second tweet by Aria Hangyu Chen for those who read Chinese. The “introduction” is necessary, to show consequences that the rule by law in China is lacking independent jurisdiction and respect for constitution, so as to support opposing the extradition into China to face its inadequate legal system—that is, if the legal system in China is on par with elsewhere, there is less reason to oppose extradition into China. Also, it is much harder to explain abstract concepts such as democracy and rule of law to mainlanders, given the heavy censorship and disinformation (e.g. those peaceful revolution such as Arabic Spring is staged by the US) in China, than to explain concrete examples that affect their daily life such as poisonous milk powder. And in recent protests in July the focus on true democracy—universal suffrage for both the legislative council and the Chief Executive by 2022—is to address the root cause of all major protests (e.g. anti-national-security-law protest in 2003, anti-restricted-democracy umbrella protest in 2014, anti-extradition protest in 2019), where the government was trying to pass law despite strong opposition in public opinion to serve the interests of Beijing over Hong Kongers. Without addressing the root cause, the lack of accountable democracy, Hong Kongers need a big protest once every five years or so, which is not solving the problem. The focus on democracy in recent protest is to break this infinite loop, and is about the bigger picture. To downvoters: please explain your rationale so we can have a civil conversation.

Arn_Thor 7y ago

> At this point, I'm not even sure the protest (communist black helicopters will come pick you up to CCP black sites where you'll get waterboarded for criticizing China) has anything to with the thing being protested (extradition for crimes punishable under HK laws with 7+ years in prison (which criticizing China hopefully is not)), but that's a different story. Two points on this.. 1) Hong Kong citizens have been kidnapped from Hong Kong to the mainland by the Chinese government, for working in a bookstore selling anti-mainland literature. This isn't some theoretical exercise, it's as real as it gets. The extradition law would to some extent legitimize the illegal breach of the two-systems policy. 2) Once in force, the HK gov could easily ram through the anti-sedition bill they've got in waiting or similar "national security" legislation, leaving people vulnerable to being extradited for speaking against the mainland. Second, Beijing is famous for revealing dissidents' "crimes" (real or often fake) committed on the mainland and demanding they be extradited there.