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Fair enough. Your responses are very much a breath of fresh air in comparison to the comebacks that I've encountered in my day to day. That being said, if I'm i

by sp4rki 16y ago

Fair enough. Your responses are very much a breath of fresh air in comparison to the comebacks that I've encountered in my day to day. That being said, if I'm interested in the treatment for Aids of diabetes, be it for my own person or for a relative or friend, I would more than likely make me interest (or disinterest) known. If you come to my house and ask me "would you like to hear about X religion and how it might benefit you?" and I answer "thank you, but I'm not really interested, I'm an atheist (or insert X religion here) and don't feel the need to convert to X any time soon" I expect the person to acknowledge my choices and realize that I'm not more right or wrong than him/her is, and that my choice of religion or lack thereof is to be as respected as the choice of the person doing the preaching. My issue is that more times than not, my answer tends to be followed by a list of why I'm wrong and why I should convert. If I expressed that I'm not interested in the discussion at that time, I'm bombarded with reproach. If it happens that I'm in for some friendly debate, it becomes an issue of being told that I'm wrong because god said so... followed by more intense reproach, of course in a not so friendly way. I'm generally not a fan of discussing religion because there are no clear cut winners and it generally becomes an issue of the more eloquent party having the upper hand. More times than not someone ends up with angry-ish feelings towards the opposing party. In any case, you're probably a diamond in a sea of carbon... You guys should make door to door preaching something a member can do after being vetted as capable of not offending the population you're trying to convert.

NathanKP 16y ago
I completely understand what you are saying and agree. For example, if I visited your door and you told me that you were not interested because you were an atheist I would not ever reproach you, but I might ask a question such as "Have you always been an atheist, or did you once believe there was a God?" This isn't intended to be confrontational but is just motivated by curiosity on my part. Perhaps if you were willing to talk about your beliefs I might go on to other questions such as "Do you believe that it is possible for us to determine if a God exists?" or "Do you think it is possible to find evidence that God exists?" and "Would you be willing to listen to some reasons why I feel that there is a God?" If so we could discuss each individual reason. Really it is comparable to having a discussion here on Hacker News. There are disagreements here on HN but as long as everyone sticks to the guidelines everyone involved can have a productive conversation. I feel that likewise it is possible to have a productive conversation about religion. Jehovah's Witnesses do have a vetting approach of sorts when it comes to determining capability but as I'm sure you will agree vetting is an extremely hard problem to tackle both accurately and fairly.
jacoblyles 16y ago
You have to understand that your reaction is typical of 99% of people JWs meet at the door. If they gave up when someone said "I'm not interested in changing my religion", then they would never talk to anyone. Universal evangelism in JW congregations will never disappear. The shared experience helps separate them from the rest of the world and bind them together, much like hazing at a fraternity or combat experiences in the military. As an unbeliever growing up in a JW household, going door to door every weekend was certainly one of the most horrific parts of my early life. I am so, so glad that is over.
jacoblyles 16y ago
Just to expand, when I was in the church, we had what amounted to a sales guidebook called "Reasoning from the Scriptures" that would list common objections and suggestions for responding to them. Your interlocutors were probably just doing as they were trained. The Jehovah's Witness church is in many ways a sales organization. When I was around, they did't have the wealth or intellectual sophistication to advertise themselves effectively. We had been using the same sales book for years and I wouldn't be surprised if "the reasoning book" is still around. An organization that enforces orthodoxy as thoroughly as Jehovah's Witnesses isn't exactly a breeding ground for creative and entrepreneurial spirits. I wouldn't expect them to pivot if hard sales techniques proved to be annoying or ineffective. They used to publish their conversion statistics in the January 1st or 15th edition of The Watchtower so you could follow their growth (an anemic 1% or so per year back in the late 90s). That was a shockingly transparent move for such a close-minded organization; it probably helps increase members trust in the central organization. But it is also bad for morale to watch numbers languish.

by sp4rki 16y ago

NathanKP 16y ago

I completely understand what you are saying and agree. For example, if I visited your door and you told me that you were not interested because you were an atheist I would not ever reproach you, but I might ask a question such as "Have you always been an atheist, or did you once believe there was a God?" This isn't intended to be confrontational but is just motivated by curiosity on my part. Perhaps if you were willing to talk about your beliefs I might go on to other questions such as "Do you believe that it is possible for us to determine if a God exists?" or "Do you think it is possible to find evidence that God exists?" and "Would you be willing to listen to some reasons why I feel that there is a God?" If so we could discuss each individual reason. Really it is comparable to having a discussion here on Hacker News. There are disagreements here on HN but as long as everyone sticks to the guidelines everyone involved can have a productive conversation. I feel that likewise it is possible to have a productive conversation about religion. Jehovah's Witnesses do have a vetting approach of sorts when it comes to determining capability but as I'm sure you will agree vetting is an extremely hard problem to tackle both accurately and fairly.

jacoblyles 16y ago

You have to understand that your reaction is typical of 99% of people JWs meet at the door. If they gave up when someone said "I'm not interested in changing my religion", then they would never talk to anyone. Universal evangelism in JW congregations will never disappear. The shared experience helps separate them from the rest of the world and bind them together, much like hazing at a fraternity or combat experiences in the military. As an unbeliever growing up in a JW household, going door to door every weekend was certainly one of the most horrific parts of my early life. I am so, so glad that is over.

jacoblyles 16y ago

Just to expand, when I was in the church, we had what amounted to a sales guidebook called "Reasoning from the Scriptures" that would list common objections and suggestions for responding to them. Your interlocutors were probably just doing as they were trained. The Jehovah's Witness church is in many ways a sales organization. When I was around, they did't have the wealth or intellectual sophistication to advertise themselves effectively. We had been using the same sales book for years and I wouldn't be surprised if "the reasoning book" is still around. An organization that enforces orthodoxy as thoroughly as Jehovah's Witnesses isn't exactly a breeding ground for creative and entrepreneurial spirits. I wouldn't expect them to pivot if hard sales techniques proved to be annoying or ineffective. They used to publish their conversion statistics in the January 1st or 15th edition of The Watchtower so you could follow their growth (an anemic 1% or so per year back in the late 90s). That was a shockingly transparent move for such a close-minded organization; it probably helps increase members trust in the central organization. But it is also bad for morale to watch numbers languish.