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I am a developer. The Touch Bar is useless to me. I remapped Caps lock to Esc expecting to be annoyed, but still hit Esc nonetheless because it works. And I def

by lloeki 7y ago

I am a developer. The Touch Bar is useless to me. I remapped Caps lock to Esc expecting to be annoyed, but still hit Esc nonetheless because it works. And I deftly adjust volume using the Touch Bar slider using press-and-slide (not tap then pick-and-slide), relying on the += key for tactile positioning (but the position itself is largely muscle memory by now) I am also a musician. The Touch Bar is fantastic to adjust tuneables in GarageBand, without the gorilla arm or wobbly screen effect you get on touchscreens. If it were annoying to me I'd just remap the two or three functions I use as a developer to some keyboard shortcut. After all I'm a developer, I think I can handle that fairly swiftly by myself if no tool were available (and I'm fairly convinced there is).

ShaneOG 7y ago
There is Karabiner Elements (https://github.com/tekezo/Karabiner-Elements https://github.com/tekezo/Karabiner-Elements) which is amazing!
- airstrike 7y ago
  Hammerspoon is also good https://www.hammerspoon.org/ https://www.hammerspoon.org/ ... but both pale in comparison to the mighty AHK for Windows, imho https://www.autohotkey.com/ https://www.autohotkey.com/ AHK is so incredibly useful it should be bundled with Windows at this stage
eropple 7y ago
> The Touch Bar is fantastic to adjust tuneables in GarageBand, without the gorilla arm or wobbly screen effect you get on touchscreens. I futzed around with the touch bar in Logic when I got one and wrote it off almost immediately. Logic Remote (which works with GarageBand, AFAIK) already exists and works with an iPad. Clear labels, clear text, manipulating multiple elements easily at once--it's a better solution than what they tried to wedge in with the touch bar. The bigger problem with the touch bar is that, as a developer, I end up hitting the touch bar controls all the time. VSCode "helpfully" has previous tab/next tab buttons on it--and so when I try to hit 2 or 3 on the keyboard, sometimes I brush against them and suddenly I'm disoriented and typing in a completely different tab. This machine is a work laptop. (Typically my music stuff is done on a 2012 rMBP, which is why I already had Logic and Logic Remote set up.) When I started, I asked for a half-the-price Thinkpad on which to run FC30 and was denied because "everyone else uses a Mac." I love the job but between the garbage touchbar and the hand-wreckingly shallow keyboard travel the computer they gave me it's easily the worst part of my day.
- coldpie 7y ago
  If you work at fixed locations most of the time, is getting real (i.e. external) keyboards an option?
  - eropple 7y ago
    My preferred external keyboard only has a PC layout. Having my fingers confused by having none of my shortcuts work is a bummer. The real answer for me is going to be swapping for an X1 Yoga or an X1 Extreme, I think.
    - Roboprog 7y ago
      I have “recycled “ Dell keyboards for both home and work macs. The window keys map to command. Maybe there are some shortcuts / combos I’m not aware of???
      - eropple 7y ago
        The modifier keys are out of place. Which can be fixed with Karabiner. What can't be fixed is mapping every keyboard shortcut to things that make sense to my hands with that keyboard. It isn't practical to rebind everything off of Command to Control even where it's possible, for example. I'm a keyboard-based person, though I don't use tiling window managers or the like. I've got a system (he said half-ironically). Some shortcuts are more comfortable to do with my left hand on the modifier. Some, the right. All of them are hosed on a Mac and fixing them would take longer than what I did today, which is ask my boss to let me give the Mac to the new guy and go order myself an X1. So this story has a happy ending!
- SkyMarshal 7y ago
  > Logic Remote (which works with GarageBand, AFAIK) already exists and works with an iPad. Clear labels, clear text, manipulating multiple elements easily at once--it's a better solution than what they tried to wedge in with the touch bar. This suggests a fun and interesting way forward for Apple UI design - layered augments from additional devices. Let OS X be the core of the system, but enable big apps like Logic or Photoshop to have connected supplementary UI's in iPad or VR/AR that provide a high-quality interface to some specific functionality. Reduce alt-tabbing on the main screen.
Kluny 7y ago
> Touch Bar is useless to me. I don't get it, the rest of your comment is mostly positive?
- nsxwolf 7y ago
  I read it as useless to me as a developer, but useful to me as a musician.
- lloeki 7y ago
  "as a developer"; and "useless" in the literal sense: it could be the Touch Bar or anything else, I could care less because I don't use that part of the keyboard. Even if it were annoying for the non-development functions I use it for when developing (volume control is not exactly "development", only auxiliary at best) I'd just remap them to actual keyboard shortcuts. But it's not. What's "annoying" is apps that could make it useful but put nonsense actions in there because horror vacui, not making use of its potential; but it's only so in an intellectual way, pragmatically I just ignore the Touch Bar in such cases and use the app as if I had if there was none.
  - rhizome 7y ago
    The sentence "The Touch Bar is useless to me" is the only negative sentiment in the paragraph (if not the entire comment), and it's followed by a few positive examples.
basch 7y ago
> I am a developer. Ill bet you 99% of mac sales are NOT to developers. Despite them arguably wanting to court developers to write swift programs, their hardware sales team doesnt seem to care about developer prosumers.
- AJ007 7y ago
  Yeah but 99% of Apple hardware sales are dependent on Mac developers.
  - carlosdp 7y ago
    Yea this is one of Apple's largest advantages as a platform, they really don't want the Macbook to fall out of favor as the developer's machine of choice.
    - basch 7y ago
      People dont use osx/ios because developers like the hardware. Developers develop for osx/ios because apple provides them a toolkit and lots of potential customers, and exposure through the appstore.
      - chipotle_coyote 7y ago
        I've been working in Silicon Valley at tech companies for the past 15 years, and MacBook Pros have been massively dominant for the web developers, server-side developers, database developers, technical developers, and mobile developers on not only iOS but Android. None of this can be explained by "Apple provides them a toolkit and exposure." I am pretty confident that developers use OS X because, yes, they like the hardware. (Which makes developers by and large not liking the last few years of MacBook hardware a danger Apple's been too slow to recognize.)
        lbotos 7y ago
        Yes, but also, it was basically linux, which meant that it was close enough to the hosts that you were connecting to. It was a nightmare to admin Linux from Windows in the past. I have a college aged brother, and Microsoft currently owns GitHub, and is providing the linux subsystem, which is a huge signal that "developers are welcome." His whole generation is developing on $300 Dell laptops and it's easy. Mac used to provide that, but you paid for it.
eridius 7y ago
As a developer, the thing that excites me the most about the Touch Bar is the fact that there's a dedicated Xcode "pause" button on it when you're debugging an app in Xcode. If I were developing a macOS app that would finally be a great way of pausing in the middle of a mouse gesture or keyboard chord. But since I'm doing iOS development these days I don't actually end up using it, oh well.
- cleong 7y ago
  That pause button is usually a function key in other keyboards.
  - eridius 7y ago
    Having it be a physical key, no matter what, can screw with trying to debug key chords in an app. And Xcode doesn't use a function key to pause, since that would also interfere with any apps that use function keys. The default keyboard shortcut for pausing in Xcode is ⌃⌘Y, and I think you have to bring Xcode to the foreground for that to work anyway.
- yakshaving_jgt 7y ago
  There's nothing stopping you from just remapping a regular key. You don't need a Touch Bar to get a "pause" button for XCode.
  - eridius 7y ago
    See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20395158 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20395158
SkyMarshal 7y ago
If you don't need to remap Esc, try remapping CTRL to CAPS. Helps a lot with dev work esp if you use mod keys frequently.
wildrhythms 7y ago
Interesting, I use Logic and have never, once, used the touchbar or thought of a use case for it. I use a keyboard usb-midi with simple pitch bend, sustain, tone wheel, etc controls. If I need to adjust a knob on a virtual control I simply use the mouse just like I’ve always done. The only thing I use the keyboard for is shortcuts like split/join tracks, solo, mute/unmute, new/dupe track. I don’t even need to look at the Mac keyboard because Apple has kept these consistent in Logic for years (which I expect). Unless I’m missing something I can’t think of anything the touchbar could do better for me. (just my 2c anecdote)

by lloeki 7y ago

ShaneOG 7y ago

There is Karabiner Elements (https://github.com/tekezo/Karabiner-Elements https://github.com/tekezo/Karabiner-Elements) which is amazing!

airstrike 7y ago
Hammerspoon is also good https://www.hammerspoon.org/ https://www.hammerspoon.org/ ... but both pale in comparison to the mighty AHK for Windows, imho https://www.autohotkey.com/ https://www.autohotkey.com/ AHK is so incredibly useful it should be bundled with Windows at this stage

eropple 7y ago

> The Touch Bar is fantastic to adjust tuneables in GarageBand, without the gorilla arm or wobbly screen effect you get on touchscreens. I futzed around with the touch bar in Logic when I got one and wrote it off almost immediately. Logic Remote (which works with GarageBand, AFAIK) already exists and works with an iPad. Clear labels, clear text, manipulating multiple elements easily at once--it's a better solution than what they tried to wedge in with the touch bar. The bigger problem with the touch bar is that, as a developer, I end up hitting the touch bar controls all the time. VSCode "helpfully" has previous tab/next tab buttons on it--and so when I try to hit 2 or 3 on the keyboard, sometimes I brush against them and suddenly I'm disoriented and typing in a completely different tab. This machine is a work laptop. (Typically my music stuff is done on a 2012 rMBP, which is why I already had Logic and Logic Remote set up.) When I started, I asked for a half-the-price Thinkpad on which to run FC30 and was denied because "everyone else uses a Mac." I love the job but between the garbage touchbar and the hand-wreckingly shallow keyboard travel the computer they gave me it's easily the worst part of my day.

coldpie 7y ago
If you work at fixed locations most of the time, is getting real (i.e. external) keyboards an option?
- eropple 7y ago
  My preferred external keyboard only has a PC layout. Having my fingers confused by having none of my shortcuts work is a bummer. The real answer for me is going to be swapping for an X1 Yoga or an X1 Extreme, I think.
  - Roboprog 7y ago
    I have “recycled “ Dell keyboards for both home and work macs. The window keys map to command. Maybe there are some shortcuts / combos I’m not aware of???
    - eropple 7y ago
      The modifier keys are out of place. Which can be fixed with Karabiner. What can't be fixed is mapping every keyboard shortcut to things that make sense to my hands with that keyboard. It isn't practical to rebind everything off of Command to Control even where it's possible, for example. I'm a keyboard-based person, though I don't use tiling window managers or the like. I've got a system (he said half-ironically). Some shortcuts are more comfortable to do with my left hand on the modifier. Some, the right. All of them are hosed on a Mac and fixing them would take longer than what I did today, which is ask my boss to let me give the Mac to the new guy and go order myself an X1. So this story has a happy ending!
SkyMarshal 7y ago
> Logic Remote (which works with GarageBand, AFAIK) already exists and works with an iPad. Clear labels, clear text, manipulating multiple elements easily at once--it's a better solution than what they tried to wedge in with the touch bar. This suggests a fun and interesting way forward for Apple UI design - layered augments from additional devices. Let OS X be the core of the system, but enable big apps like Logic or Photoshop to have connected supplementary UI's in iPad or VR/AR that provide a high-quality interface to some specific functionality. Reduce alt-tabbing on the main screen.

Kluny 7y ago

> Touch Bar is useless to me. I don't get it, the rest of your comment is mostly positive?

nsxwolf 7y ago
I read it as useless to me as a developer, but useful to me as a musician.
lloeki 7y ago
"as a developer"; and "useless" in the literal sense: it could be the Touch Bar or anything else, I could care less because I don't use that part of the keyboard. Even if it were annoying for the non-development functions I use it for when developing (volume control is not exactly "development", only auxiliary at best) I'd just remap them to actual keyboard shortcuts. But it's not. What's "annoying" is apps that could make it useful but put nonsense actions in there because horror vacui, not making use of its potential; but it's only so in an intellectual way, pragmatically I just ignore the Touch Bar in such cases and use the app as if I had if there was none.
- rhizome 7y ago
  The sentence "The Touch Bar is useless to me" is the only negative sentiment in the paragraph (if not the entire comment), and it's followed by a few positive examples.

basch 7y ago

> I am a developer. Ill bet you 99% of mac sales are NOT to developers. Despite them arguably wanting to court developers to write swift programs, their hardware sales team doesnt seem to care about developer prosumers.

AJ007 7y ago
Yeah but 99% of Apple hardware sales are dependent on Mac developers.
- carlosdp 7y ago
  Yea this is one of Apple's largest advantages as a platform, they really don't want the Macbook to fall out of favor as the developer's machine of choice.
  - basch 7y ago
    People dont use osx/ios because developers like the hardware. Developers develop for osx/ios because apple provides them a toolkit and lots of potential customers, and exposure through the appstore.
    - chipotle_coyote 7y ago
      I've been working in Silicon Valley at tech companies for the past 15 years, and MacBook Pros have been massively dominant for the web developers, server-side developers, database developers, technical developers, and mobile developers on not only iOS but Android. None of this can be explained by "Apple provides them a toolkit and exposure." I am pretty confident that developers use OS X because, yes, they like the hardware. (Which makes developers by and large not liking the last few years of MacBook hardware a danger Apple's been too slow to recognize.)
      - lbotos 7y ago
        Yes, but also, it was basically linux, which meant that it was close enough to the hosts that you were connecting to. It was a nightmare to admin Linux from Windows in the past. I have a college aged brother, and Microsoft currently owns GitHub, and is providing the linux subsystem, which is a huge signal that "developers are welcome." His whole generation is developing on $300 Dell laptops and it's easy. Mac used to provide that, but you paid for it.

eridius 7y ago

As a developer, the thing that excites me the most about the Touch Bar is the fact that there's a dedicated Xcode "pause" button on it when you're debugging an app in Xcode. If I were developing a macOS app that would finally be a great way of pausing in the middle of a mouse gesture or keyboard chord. But since I'm doing iOS development these days I don't actually end up using it, oh well.

cleong 7y ago
That pause button is usually a function key in other keyboards.
- eridius 7y ago
  Having it be a physical key, no matter what, can screw with trying to debug key chords in an app. And Xcode doesn't use a function key to pause, since that would also interfere with any apps that use function keys. The default keyboard shortcut for pausing in Xcode is ⌃⌘Y, and I think you have to bring Xcode to the foreground for that to work anyway.
yakshaving_jgt 7y ago
There's nothing stopping you from just remapping a regular key. You don't need a Touch Bar to get a "pause" button for XCode.
- eridius 7y ago
  See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20395158 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20395158

SkyMarshal 7y ago

If you don't need to remap Esc, try remapping CTRL to CAPS. Helps a lot with dev work esp if you use mod keys frequently.

wildrhythms 7y ago

Interesting, I use Logic and have never, once, used the touchbar or thought of a use case for it. I use a keyboard usb-midi with simple pitch bend, sustain, tone wheel, etc controls. If I need to adjust a knob on a virtual control I simply use the mouse just like I’ve always done. The only thing I use the keyboard for is shortcuts like split/join tracks, solo, mute/unmute, new/dupe track. I don’t even need to look at the Mac keyboard because Apple has kept these consistent in Logic for years (which I expect). Unless I’m missing something I can’t think of anything the touchbar could do better for me. (just my 2c anecdote)