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Devuan is but one fork among many. It has zero traction in the enterprise space. Devuan, Gentoo, et al, are niche players. While their userlands may be "pure",

Devuan is but one fork among many. It has zero traction in the enterprise space. Devuan, Gentoo, et al, are niche players. While their userlands may be "pure", they represent a minuscule fraction of Linux users. And yes, systemd is a dependency for quite a few userland programs. Here is one of the best articles I've read on why systemd is really bad. https://chiefio.wordpress.com/2016/05/18/systemd-it-keeps-getting-worse/ https://chiefio.wordpress.com/2016/05/18/systemd-it-keeps-ge...

throw0101a 7y ago
systemd-was-init-replacement was not bad. systemd-as-kitchen-sink is where problems started. E.g., creating a binary log file format that is non-ACID, and corruption entails throwing the file away--instead of just leverage SQLite; and then not having a way to send logs remotely, so you have to run rsyslog anyway.
- Conan_Kudo 7y ago
  > and then not having a way to send logs remotely, so you have to run rsyslog anyway. journald has its own remote gateway and can ship logs elsewhere. It's not on by default, but you can easily configure it. There are several addons for plugging in specific protocols and services into the journal.
  - throw0101a 7y ago
    Are you referring to systemd-journal-remote? * https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd-journal-remote.service.html https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd-jou... I am referring to something syslog-based: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syslog#Internet_standard_documents https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syslog#Internet_standard_docum... which can be used by other tools to process. Can you point me to documentation on how journald can be configured to send to a remote syslog server?
    - babarock 7y ago
      https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/journald.conf.html https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/journald.co... Seriously, it's in the man page.
      - wtallis 7y ago
        You don't seem to have linked to any particular section of the man page. Linking the whole manual is not helpful.
      - silversconfused 7y ago
        Your man page link confirms the capability is not there. It can forward to local syslog, which is still both useless (logging holes still exist) and needlessly redundant for this purpose.
      - throw0101a 7y ago
        Seriously, do you understand the word REMOTE? From the man page: > Journal events can be transferred to a different logging daemon in two different ways. With the first method, messages are immediately forwarded to a socket (/run/systemd/journal/syslog), where the traditional syslog daemon can read them. This method is controlled by the ForwardToSyslog= option. With a second method, a syslog daemon behaves like a normal journal client, and reads messages from the journal files, similarly to journalctl(1). With this, messages do not have to be read immediately, which allows a logging daemon which is only started late in boot to access all messages since the start of the system. In addition, full structured meta-data is available to it. This method of course is available only if the messages are stored in a journal file at all. So it will not work if Storage=none is set. It should be noted that usually the second method is used by syslog daemons, so the Storage= option, and not the ForwardToSyslog= option, is relevant for them. That is all about local. Again: I end having to running a syslogd locally so that I can send stuff remtely using an industry standard protocol.

throw0101a 7y ago

systemd-was-init-replacement was not bad. systemd-as-kitchen-sink is where problems started. E.g., creating a binary log file format that is non-ACID, and corruption entails throwing the file away--instead of just leverage SQLite; and then not having a way to send logs remotely, so you have to run rsyslog anyway.

Conan_Kudo 7y ago
> and then not having a way to send logs remotely, so you have to run rsyslog anyway. journald has its own remote gateway and can ship logs elsewhere. It's not on by default, but you can easily configure it. There are several addons for plugging in specific protocols and services into the journal.
- throw0101a 7y ago
  Are you referring to systemd-journal-remote? * https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd-journal-remote.service.html https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd-jou... I am referring to something syslog-based: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syslog#Internet_standard_documents https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syslog#Internet_standard_docum... which can be used by other tools to process. Can you point me to documentation on how journald can be configured to send to a remote syslog server?
  - babarock 7y ago
    https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/journald.conf.html https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/journald.co... Seriously, it's in the man page.
    - wtallis 7y ago
      You don't seem to have linked to any particular section of the man page. Linking the whole manual is not helpful.
    - silversconfused 7y ago
      Your man page link confirms the capability is not there. It can forward to local syslog, which is still both useless (logging holes still exist) and needlessly redundant for this purpose.
    - throw0101a 7y ago
      Seriously, do you understand the word REMOTE? From the man page: > Journal events can be transferred to a different logging daemon in two different ways. With the first method, messages are immediately forwarded to a socket (/run/systemd/journal/syslog), where the traditional syslog daemon can read them. This method is controlled by the ForwardToSyslog= option. With a second method, a syslog daemon behaves like a normal journal client, and reads messages from the journal files, similarly to journalctl(1). With this, messages do not have to be read immediately, which allows a logging daemon which is only started late in boot to access all messages since the start of the system. In addition, full structured meta-data is available to it. This method of course is available only if the messages are stored in a journal file at all. So it will not work if Storage=none is set. It should be noted that usually the second method is used by syslog daemons, so the Storage= option, and not the ForwardToSyslog= option, is relevant for them. That is all about local. Again: I end having to running a syslogd locally so that I can send stuff remtely using an industry standard protocol.