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This is quite literally ridiculous. In the UK we have the national grid that supplies all connected homes in the UK. It is the sole supplier of electricity. A

by opless 7y ago

This is quite literally ridiculous. In the UK we have the national grid that supplies all connected homes in the UK. It is the sole supplier of electricity. All electricity generated is fed to this national grid. Coal/Gas/Wind/Hydroelectric it doesn't matter. There are no separate streams from one generator of electricity that you can request from. What you DO get is a choice of who bills you. I'm unsure how these renewable energy certificates work. But it's likely a scam on the generation end that the suppliers will wave at naïve customers to hide the fact that there is zero difference between the electricity you by from eon or British gas, or any of the other billing agents. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Grid_(Great_Britain) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Grid_(Great_Britain) (Edit: added Wikipedia URL)

wsc981 7y ago
In many European countries trees from the USA and Canada are imported to be burned for green, renewable energy. Technically it's true, but it's at great cost. Not even taking into account the costs of transportation. https://www.businessinsider.com/europe-imports-wood-biomass-from-us-for-power-2015-12 https://www.businessinsider.com/europe-imports-wood-biomass-... Here's a Dutch documentary on the subject, though some US environmental activists & loggers are interviewed as well at around the 13 minute mark, so that part should be understandable for non-Dutch speaking people: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LHGbiyvZto https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LHGbiyvZto
- tialaramex 7y ago
  Yup. In the UK this is mostly the activity of Drax, a really big (like by world standards) thermal power plant, converted from coal. What used to happen was whole trains filled with coal would vanish into Drax's maw and several gigawatts (like I said, it's big) of electricity comes out, plus ludicrous amounts of toxic ash, clouds of smoke etcetera. Part of that plant is now idled, because we don't burn very much coal any more, but a big part was converted to consume trees instead. Notionally it's "waste" wood, but the tremendous volumes involved make that a joke. Like, oh, here's a "waste" forest I didn't need. At first the UK government was like "Check out how green this is" and as the scientific consensus got further towards "Do not burn trees you idiots!" they've been gradually walking that back towards "Well, at least it isn't coal?". But it operates 24/7 because Drax gets those renewable credits and is relatively cheap to operate, plus it's employment.
plufz 7y ago
> All electricity generated is fed to this national grid. Coal/Gas/Wind/Hydroelectric it doesn't matter. There are no separate streams from one generator of electricity that you can request from. I see this comment a lot. But doesn’t everybody know this and who cares? All I care of is where my money goes, not the specific electricity I get. (It might be a scam in other ways though)
verytrivial 7y ago
So what do you call it if an energy retailer sells X joules of electricity to consumers and buys X joules from renewable energy suppliers? Yes the market is pooled, but if all retailers did this, there would be only renewables being fed in to the pool. That's the point, no?
- opless 7y ago
  This makes /some/ sense ... but it still smells of doublethink.
Certhas 7y ago
Well, you don't know how it works but you're sure it's a scam and ridiculous? I would suggest informing yourself about the basics of energy markets first before making such definitive statements. Obviously the electrons you get might come from anywhere, but EON is buying energy to feed into the system to match the demand of it's customers. If they buy enough renewable to cover their demand than it's fair to say that they switched their consumers to renewables, even if the specific energy might end up elsewhere. Here is a good way to think about it: What would it take for every energy supplier to offer 100% renewables? If that is only possible by running the system completely renewable, then the certificates are not lying. Of course there is a displacement effect: If EON runs 100% renewable, and in return a larger supplier runs 10% renewable instead of 30% and doesn't tell their consumers, nothing is won. But if consumers start demanding or favouring renewables, then this latter supplier will also have an incentive to increase renewables in their system.

by opless 7y ago

wsc981 7y ago

In many European countries trees from the USA and Canada are imported to be burned for green, renewable energy. Technically it's true, but it's at great cost. Not even taking into account the costs of transportation. https://www.businessinsider.com/europe-imports-wood-biomass-from-us-for-power-2015-12 https://www.businessinsider.com/europe-imports-wood-biomass-... Here's a Dutch documentary on the subject, though some US environmental activists & loggers are interviewed as well at around the 13 minute mark, so that part should be understandable for non-Dutch speaking people: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LHGbiyvZto https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LHGbiyvZto

tialaramex 7y ago
Yup. In the UK this is mostly the activity of Drax, a really big (like by world standards) thermal power plant, converted from coal. What used to happen was whole trains filled with coal would vanish into Drax's maw and several gigawatts (like I said, it's big) of electricity comes out, plus ludicrous amounts of toxic ash, clouds of smoke etcetera. Part of that plant is now idled, because we don't burn very much coal any more, but a big part was converted to consume trees instead. Notionally it's "waste" wood, but the tremendous volumes involved make that a joke. Like, oh, here's a "waste" forest I didn't need. At first the UK government was like "Check out how green this is" and as the scientific consensus got further towards "Do not burn trees you idiots!" they've been gradually walking that back towards "Well, at least it isn't coal?". But it operates 24/7 because Drax gets those renewable credits and is relatively cheap to operate, plus it's employment.

plufz 7y ago

> All electricity generated is fed to this national grid. Coal/Gas/Wind/Hydroelectric it doesn't matter. There are no separate streams from one generator of electricity that you can request from. I see this comment a lot. But doesn’t everybody know this and who cares? All I care of is where my money goes, not the specific electricity I get. (It might be a scam in other ways though)

verytrivial 7y ago

So what do you call it if an energy retailer sells X joules of electricity to consumers and buys X joules from renewable energy suppliers? Yes the market is pooled, but if all retailers did this, there would be only renewables being fed in to the pool. That's the point, no?

opless 7y ago
This makes /some/ sense ... but it still smells of doublethink.

Certhas 7y ago

Well, you don't know how it works but you're sure it's a scam and ridiculous? I would suggest informing yourself about the basics of energy markets first before making such definitive statements. Obviously the electrons you get might come from anywhere, but EON is buying energy to feed into the system to match the demand of it's customers. If they buy enough renewable to cover their demand than it's fair to say that they switched their consumers to renewables, even if the specific energy might end up elsewhere. Here is a good way to think about it: What would it take for every energy supplier to offer 100% renewables? If that is only possible by running the system completely renewable, then the certificates are not lying. Of course there is a displacement effect: If EON runs 100% renewable, and in return a larger supplier runs 10% renewable instead of 30% and doesn't tell their consumers, nothing is won. But if consumers start demanding or favouring renewables, then this latter supplier will also have an incentive to increase renewables in their system.