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> Does innovation in general bother you? Only when I have numerous first hand accounts of where it doesn’t work. Just as I have from my extended family, most o

> Does innovation in general bother you? Only when I have numerous first hand accounts of where it doesn’t work. Just as I have from my extended family, most of who are teachers and all of who state that kids who have been taught outside of the standard educational system are always behind kids who were not. This is often even true for kids who have received additional tuition outside of school where their tutors haven’t taught them the same learning tools as what the school teaches (eg different methods for long division, or ways of teaching phonics) because this can often leave the child confused between the two systems when getting taught in class. > what we're doing isn't a very new idea Just because it’s not a new idea it doesn’t mean it isn’t also total garbage. > Well again, we didn't exactly teach her, she taught herself with our guidance. She speaks English, Swedish and German, and she's learning French and Spanish Learning to read is not just about learning the shapes of spoken languages. Learning to read also teaches literacy and creative writing. It engages parts of the imagination that other forms of creative play do not. Plus it also teaches mental discipline as well. You claim she can read as well as her peers (which I doubt you’ve done an actual impartial comparison. Partly because kids would never agree to a study under such conditions and partly because of your emotional connection to the “test subject”) but what about those other skills that reading teaches? My own experience also mirrors that which my family of teachers have observed. I showed very little interest in reading when I was a child. The only things I chose to read were technical schematics and programming manuals for 70s and 80s computing hardware. That had a really significant impact on my writing skills; to the extent that I massively struggled to pass my English exams. The amount of extra hours I had to put in towards the end of my teenage years to compensate cannot be understated. > She has two personal tutors with her that guide her into learning what she wants. Public school does not offer that. It’s not an “either/or”. You can still teach your kids things they’re interested in outside of school as well. Just make sure you don’t contradict the curriculum when you do this :) > Also I find the typo here [1] a tiny bit ironic [2] Yeah, typing on a phone while getting ready for work will lead to some autocorrect fails. To be honest I’m surprised that was my only error.

jacobolus 7y ago
> kids who have been taught outside of the standard educational system are always behind kids who were not This is awfully overgeneralized. Was this guy “behind” the “standard system kids”? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_Demaine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_Demaine
- rimliu 7y ago
  Was he a rule or an exception?
barry-cotter 7y ago
Almost all of your points boil down to homeschooled children not being convenient for teachers used to children who have been in day school since they were of school age. If the only bad result of your reading lots of manuals was poor grades in English for a few years this is of no consequence. Learning to express one’s thoughts about things you care about is a very different skill from imitating research in English literature. If you want to learn more about democratic and child centred education as practiced at Summerhill I can highly recommend the founding Headmaster, A.S. Neill’s book on the school, Summerhill[1]. You are of course free to believe whatever you want about child centred methods of education but Summerhill’s students are not handicapped in life success or exams by the freedom to attend lessons or not as they choose, not are Sudbury’s[2]. You do not need an “impartial assessment” to know how well children are reading if you can read at the level of a university graduate. You can look at the books they read for pleasure and assess the level for yourself. If the child doesn’t quite get it but they’re close enough to try to read those books and enjoy them that’s a good thing. The idea that you should take care not to contradict the curriculum is ... Education is meant to be for children, not teachers. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summerhill_School http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summerhill_School [2]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudbury_school https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudbury_school
- pushpop 7y ago
  I did say in my former post that the reason for not contradicting the curriculum is because it is confusing for the child (this is something teachers up and down the country observe day to day). Sure, it’s also easier for the teacher as well but that’s irrelevant to the discussion.
spraak 7y ago
> most of who are teachers and all of who state that kids who have been taught outside of the standard educational system are always behind kids who were not. Would you admit that your perspective then is heavily biased? I don't claim to be unbiased, but I myself come from a family of educators, and I chose a different direction (see also John Gatto). That is, I'm very unsurprised that traditional educators would think that homeschoolers are behind, but it's very not true. > Just because it’s not a new idea it doesn’t mean it isn’t also total garbage. Public school is total garbage, in my experience and opinion. > Learning to read is not just about learning the shapes of spoken languages. Learning to read also teaches literacy and creative writing. It engages parts of the imagination that other forms of creative play do not. Plus it also teaches mental discipline as well. I don't disagree. You say it as though my daughter has none of that, which I again find strange. > The only things I chose to read were technical schematics and programming manuals for 70s and 80s computing hardware. That had a really significant impact on my writing skills; to the extent that I massively struggled to pass my English exams. Right. Well you have a good lesson to share about that, then. And that's the same reason why I still guide what my daughter reads, and still encourage and recommend a variety of works.
- pushpop 7y ago
  Just out of interest, which country are you based? I wonder if the reason perspective is so polarised from mine is because our education systems also vastly differ. From the perspective of the UK, most of what you said is completely untrue.
  - tomp 7y ago
    I live in the UK. Everybody complains about the public ("state" or whatever) schools. I'd never enroll my kids in public schools here (pre-university), only in private schools, if I had the means. Continental Europe is much better IMO/E.
    - pushpop 7y ago
      People moan about a great many things but it doesn’t mean they’re right (hence Brexit, Trump, “Christian values”, racism/homophobia/etc, those who moan about computer security from a lazy ux perspective (eg “why can’t my password be the same as my user name?”). I take much more stock in the opinions with those who actually have to work under those conditions and see those systems in use first hand. I agree it’s not perfect and there are plenty of areas it can be improved but some of the comments on here are throwing out the baby water (as others have also pointed out). If you can afford private education then that’s also an option. But you’re still part of the same education system with the same flaws. You are just (hopefully) paying for better teachers (that isn’t always the case - more about that below). For all of its warts, public schools are still a far better option than homeschooling in the vast majority cases. Its worth noting that I’ve provided IT services for a few private’s schools in my time and frankly some of them were worse than the public school I went to! Both in terms of teaching staff and school equipment. It was a real eye opener for me because up until that point I was planning on sending my (then theoretical) kids to private school too.
burfog 7y ago
The "kids who have been taught outside of the standard educational system" seem to be behind for at least two reasons: 1. You have a biased sample. You're getting the failures. If homeschooling doesn't work, parents give up. If homeschooling works well, parents keep at it. You'll almost never see the successes. 2. You don't check everything. If a student in 6th grade is at a 5th grade writing level but is at 9th grade for math and science, you'll really notice the writing deficiency but you won't realize that the math and science are ahead of grade level. This is simply a matter of an incompatible curriculum schedule, the same as if the student arrived from a different country.
- pushpop 7y ago
  1. You make a valid point there 2. Any half decent teacher will know if that were the case because teachers (at least in the UK) have to set different levels of work for their class anyway to compensate for the natural discrepancy in children’s ability. They know which kids are stronger in what subjects and who struggle. I’m not saying it’s something that every teacher is great at picking up on but there are plenty of telltale signs that help you spot this - even without going as far as testing the kids. Eg when creating lesson plans my wife will often say out loud to herself things like “I need a 4th challenge for this topic because Charlie and Alice are clever and will do the other tasks quickly” (highly paraphrased and names made up).

jacobolus 7y ago

> kids who have been taught outside of the standard educational system are always behind kids who were not This is awfully overgeneralized. Was this guy “behind” the “standard system kids”? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_Demaine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_Demaine

rimliu 7y ago
Was he a rule or an exception?

barry-cotter 7y ago

Almost all of your points boil down to homeschooled children not being convenient for teachers used to children who have been in day school since they were of school age. If the only bad result of your reading lots of manuals was poor grades in English for a few years this is of no consequence. Learning to express one’s thoughts about things you care about is a very different skill from imitating research in English literature. If you want to learn more about democratic and child centred education as practiced at Summerhill I can highly recommend the founding Headmaster, A.S. Neill’s book on the school, Summerhill[1]. You are of course free to believe whatever you want about child centred methods of education but Summerhill’s students are not handicapped in life success or exams by the freedom to attend lessons or not as they choose, not are Sudbury’s[2]. You do not need an “impartial assessment” to know how well children are reading if you can read at the level of a university graduate. You can look at the books they read for pleasure and assess the level for yourself. If the child doesn’t quite get it but they’re close enough to try to read those books and enjoy them that’s a good thing. The idea that you should take care not to contradict the curriculum is ... Education is meant to be for children, not teachers. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summerhill_School http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summerhill_School [2]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudbury_school https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudbury_school

pushpop 7y ago
I did say in my former post that the reason for not contradicting the curriculum is because it is confusing for the child (this is something teachers up and down the country observe day to day). Sure, it’s also easier for the teacher as well but that’s irrelevant to the discussion.

spraak 7y ago

> most of who are teachers and all of who state that kids who have been taught outside of the standard educational system are always behind kids who were not. Would you admit that your perspective then is heavily biased? I don't claim to be unbiased, but I myself come from a family of educators, and I chose a different direction (see also John Gatto). That is, I'm very unsurprised that traditional educators would think that homeschoolers are behind, but it's very not true. > Just because it’s not a new idea it doesn’t mean it isn’t also total garbage. Public school is total garbage, in my experience and opinion. > Learning to read is not just about learning the shapes of spoken languages. Learning to read also teaches literacy and creative writing. It engages parts of the imagination that other forms of creative play do not. Plus it also teaches mental discipline as well. I don't disagree. You say it as though my daughter has none of that, which I again find strange. > The only things I chose to read were technical schematics and programming manuals for 70s and 80s computing hardware. That had a really significant impact on my writing skills; to the extent that I massively struggled to pass my English exams. Right. Well you have a good lesson to share about that, then. And that's the same reason why I still guide what my daughter reads, and still encourage and recommend a variety of works.

pushpop 7y ago
Just out of interest, which country are you based? I wonder if the reason perspective is so polarised from mine is because our education systems also vastly differ. From the perspective of the UK, most of what you said is completely untrue.
- tomp 7y ago
  I live in the UK. Everybody complains about the public ("state" or whatever) schools. I'd never enroll my kids in public schools here (pre-university), only in private schools, if I had the means. Continental Europe is much better IMO/E.
  - pushpop 7y ago
    People moan about a great many things but it doesn’t mean they’re right (hence Brexit, Trump, “Christian values”, racism/homophobia/etc, those who moan about computer security from a lazy ux perspective (eg “why can’t my password be the same as my user name?”). I take much more stock in the opinions with those who actually have to work under those conditions and see those systems in use first hand. I agree it’s not perfect and there are plenty of areas it can be improved but some of the comments on here are throwing out the baby water (as others have also pointed out). If you can afford private education then that’s also an option. But you’re still part of the same education system with the same flaws. You are just (hopefully) paying for better teachers (that isn’t always the case - more about that below). For all of its warts, public schools are still a far better option than homeschooling in the vast majority cases. Its worth noting that I’ve provided IT services for a few private’s schools in my time and frankly some of them were worse than the public school I went to! Both in terms of teaching staff and school equipment. It was a real eye opener for me because up until that point I was planning on sending my (then theoretical) kids to private school too.

burfog 7y ago

The "kids who have been taught outside of the standard educational system" seem to be behind for at least two reasons: 1. You have a biased sample. You're getting the failures. If homeschooling doesn't work, parents give up. If homeschooling works well, parents keep at it. You'll almost never see the successes. 2. You don't check everything. If a student in 6th grade is at a 5th grade writing level but is at 9th grade for math and science, you'll really notice the writing deficiency but you won't realize that the math and science are ahead of grade level. This is simply a matter of an incompatible curriculum schedule, the same as if the student arrived from a different country.

pushpop 7y ago
1. You make a valid point there 2. Any half decent teacher will know if that were the case because teachers (at least in the UK) have to set different levels of work for their class anyway to compensate for the natural discrepancy in children’s ability. They know which kids are stronger in what subjects and who struggle. I’m not saying it’s something that every teacher is great at picking up on but there are plenty of telltale signs that help you spot this - even without going as far as testing the kids. Eg when creating lesson plans my wife will often say out loud to herself things like “I need a 4th challenge for this topic because Charlie and Alice are clever and will do the other tasks quickly” (highly paraphrased and names made up).