4 ms·

Not to defend them, but this is exactly what happens to all non cash transactions. Which you kind of have to do to with any sizeable quantity of money (say over

Not to defend them, but this is exactly what happens to all non cash transactions. Which you kind of have to do to with any sizeable quantity of money (say over 100k) for practical reasons, like theft.

Lucadg 7y ago
True. This is exactly the problem with non cash transactions. Every single transaction, no matter how small, is recorded forever and shared with several governments and secret services. I never signed up for this. This is why we need cash and why they are fighting it.
- SuperNinjaCat 7y ago
  Another question on my mind (again, just my random thoughts, not representing others) is: How could this be used to undermine countries economies who are possibly earmarked for regime change by a company with strong ties to the US State Department affect the current geopolitical landscape...especially when some "developing nations" populations literally see Facebook as the Internet?
  - H8crilA 7y ago
    Same as Trump's (and his predecessors) financial blacklists. Huawei CFO is prosecuted and currently in home arrest in Canada awaiting extradition to the US for allegedly bypassing sanctions on Iran. In simpler words: another US-domiciled lever that can be switched to the off position.
    - arcticbull 7y ago
      > Huawei CFO is prosecuted and currently in home arrest in Canada awaiting extradition to the US for allegedly bypassing sanctions on Iran. Huawei's CFO is currently on "house arrest" in a $10 million dollar estate in one of Vancouver's best neighborhoods, but free to move about the city so long as she's accompanied by a minder. As contrasted with the Canadians that China has kidnapped in retaliation and remain in secret prisons 8 months later with limited consular services. [1] She's under arrest for wire fraud because to be extradited from Canada you have to have committed what would be a crime in Canada, and violating US sanctions is not a crime in Canada. She is not awaiting extradition, the trial hasn't happened yet, and she may well not be extradited if this is in fact primarily case of US extraterritoriality. One of her best arguments, per usual, is Trump's comments on the whole situation. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-08/huawei-cfo-is-on-the-move-to-her-bigger-10-million-mansion https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-08/huawei-cf...
      - H8crilA 7y ago
        So, you basically agree with me.
- beefield 7y ago
  The problem with cash is that it prohibits sensible monetary policy in certain situations (i.e. negative interest rates). So instead of cash we would need anonymous physical (and digital) tokens whose value is not fixed, but is adjusted according to the interest rates. I guess main problem is that to a very good approximation nobody wants these. Generally, the ones understanding monetary policy don't understand the need for privacy and the ones understanding need for privacy don't understand the need for negative rates and the rest don't care.
  - 2a96eb7d685a49c 7y ago
    > The problem with cash is that it prohibits sensible monetary policy in certain situations This is a feature not a bug.
  - cesarb 7y ago
    > So instead of cash we would need anonymous physical (and digital) tokens whose value is not fixed, but is adjusted according to the interest rates. So what you want is... cash. But cash from a separate currency. This is identical to what we had here in Brazil in the 90s during the Plano Real transition: the cash everyone had was in the Cruzeiro Real currency, but all the prices were denominate in URV (a "virtual" currency, which months later became a real currency called Real). The Cruzeiro Real was suffering from inflation at the time, but the URV was stable, so to buy something with a price of 1 URV you might pay CR$ 864,14 one week and CR$ 1004,68 the next week (source for these values: https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unidade_real_de_valor https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unidade_real_de_valor).
    - beefield 7y ago
      Yep, that is one way to do it to have an exchange rate between cash and account currency.
  - tanseydavid 7y ago
    It astonishes me that you refer to Negative Interest Rates as "sensible monetary policy."
- erfgh 7y ago
  The reason they are fighting it is because cash transactions are mostly transactions which will not be reported for taxes. When Greece implemented capital controls in 2015 the country's tax income skyrocketed because everyone started using debit cards.
roel_v 7y ago
"all non cash transactions. Which you kind of have to do to with any sizeable quantity of money (say over 100k)" Sort of related, in the Netherlands, we will soon (2 years or so) have a ban on cash transaction of more than 3000 euros. Not to one-up, just saying that it's happening. To be fair, I contribute to this by doing pretty much all payments electronically. Just like I contribute to local bookstores disappearing by buying from Amazon, although I claim to like local bookstores.
- kenny_r 7y ago
  The same €3000 limit for cash transactions has already been implemented in Belgium, France has an even stricter limit of €1000. Starting in January, the ECB will stop the distribution of the €500 bill. We're nearing the death of cash.
  - Heliosmaster 7y ago
    Italy as well, and other countries are following suit / will do.
  - touristtam 7y ago
    Interesting; I believe the creation of the 500 bill was at the request of Germany. This is the second visible 'give in' from Germany after not getting their candidate at the head of the ECB. Makes you wonder what they have traded this for.
- harperlee 7y ago
  Does that ban apply to to individuals, though, or only companies? In the European countries I know of, it’s the latter.
  - roel_v 7y ago
    From what I understand, all transactions. It's very hard to enforce between individuals, of course.
rbrtl 7y ago
Did you read the Guardian articles about UK Gov't sponsored money laundering? An eye-opener to be sure: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/05/how-britain-can-help-you-get-away-with-stealing-millions-a-five-step-guide https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/05/how-britain-ca...

Lucadg 7y ago

True. This is exactly the problem with non cash transactions. Every single transaction, no matter how small, is recorded forever and shared with several governments and secret services. I never signed up for this. This is why we need cash and why they are fighting it.

SuperNinjaCat 7y ago
Another question on my mind (again, just my random thoughts, not representing others) is: How could this be used to undermine countries economies who are possibly earmarked for regime change by a company with strong ties to the US State Department affect the current geopolitical landscape...especially when some "developing nations" populations literally see Facebook as the Internet?
- H8crilA 7y ago
  Same as Trump's (and his predecessors) financial blacklists. Huawei CFO is prosecuted and currently in home arrest in Canada awaiting extradition to the US for allegedly bypassing sanctions on Iran. In simpler words: another US-domiciled lever that can be switched to the off position.
  - arcticbull 7y ago
    > Huawei CFO is prosecuted and currently in home arrest in Canada awaiting extradition to the US for allegedly bypassing sanctions on Iran. Huawei's CFO is currently on "house arrest" in a $10 million dollar estate in one of Vancouver's best neighborhoods, but free to move about the city so long as she's accompanied by a minder. As contrasted with the Canadians that China has kidnapped in retaliation and remain in secret prisons 8 months later with limited consular services. [1] She's under arrest for wire fraud because to be extradited from Canada you have to have committed what would be a crime in Canada, and violating US sanctions is not a crime in Canada. She is not awaiting extradition, the trial hasn't happened yet, and she may well not be extradited if this is in fact primarily case of US extraterritoriality. One of her best arguments, per usual, is Trump's comments on the whole situation. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-08/huawei-cfo-is-on-the-move-to-her-bigger-10-million-mansion https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-08/huawei-cf...
    - H8crilA 7y ago
      So, you basically agree with me.
beefield 7y ago
The problem with cash is that it prohibits sensible monetary policy in certain situations (i.e. negative interest rates). So instead of cash we would need anonymous physical (and digital) tokens whose value is not fixed, but is adjusted according to the interest rates. I guess main problem is that to a very good approximation nobody wants these. Generally, the ones understanding monetary policy don't understand the need for privacy and the ones understanding need for privacy don't understand the need for negative rates and the rest don't care.
- 2a96eb7d685a49c 7y ago
  > The problem with cash is that it prohibits sensible monetary policy in certain situations This is a feature not a bug.
- cesarb 7y ago
  > So instead of cash we would need anonymous physical (and digital) tokens whose value is not fixed, but is adjusted according to the interest rates. So what you want is... cash. But cash from a separate currency. This is identical to what we had here in Brazil in the 90s during the Plano Real transition: the cash everyone had was in the Cruzeiro Real currency, but all the prices were denominate in URV (a "virtual" currency, which months later became a real currency called Real). The Cruzeiro Real was suffering from inflation at the time, but the URV was stable, so to buy something with a price of 1 URV you might pay CR$ 864,14 one week and CR$ 1004,68 the next week (source for these values: https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unidade_real_de_valor https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unidade_real_de_valor).
  - beefield 7y ago
    Yep, that is one way to do it to have an exchange rate between cash and account currency.
- tanseydavid 7y ago
  It astonishes me that you refer to Negative Interest Rates as "sensible monetary policy."
erfgh 7y ago
The reason they are fighting it is because cash transactions are mostly transactions which will not be reported for taxes. When Greece implemented capital controls in 2015 the country's tax income skyrocketed because everyone started using debit cards.

roel_v 7y ago

"all non cash transactions. Which you kind of have to do to with any sizeable quantity of money (say over 100k)" Sort of related, in the Netherlands, we will soon (2 years or so) have a ban on cash transaction of more than 3000 euros. Not to one-up, just saying that it's happening. To be fair, I contribute to this by doing pretty much all payments electronically. Just like I contribute to local bookstores disappearing by buying from Amazon, although I claim to like local bookstores.

kenny_r 7y ago
The same €3000 limit for cash transactions has already been implemented in Belgium, France has an even stricter limit of €1000. Starting in January, the ECB will stop the distribution of the €500 bill. We're nearing the death of cash.
- Heliosmaster 7y ago
  Italy as well, and other countries are following suit / will do.
- touristtam 7y ago
  Interesting; I believe the creation of the 500 bill was at the request of Germany. This is the second visible 'give in' from Germany after not getting their candidate at the head of the ECB. Makes you wonder what they have traded this for.
harperlee 7y ago
Does that ban apply to to individuals, though, or only companies? In the European countries I know of, it’s the latter.
- roel_v 7y ago
  From what I understand, all transactions. It's very hard to enforce between individuals, of course.

rbrtl 7y ago

Did you read the Guardian articles about UK Gov't sponsored money laundering? An eye-opener to be sure: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/05/how-britain-can-help-you-get-away-with-stealing-millions-a-five-step-guide https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/05/how-britain-ca...