8 ms·

Couldn't hide my smile when I saw the Jehovah witnesses' column.

NathanKP 16y ago
Just so you know I'm not the one that downvoted you, but as one of Jehovah's Witnesses myself I feel compelled to comment on one incorrect aspect of your comment. It is "Jehovah's Witnesses" not "Jehovah Witnesses" or "Jehovahs". The apostrophe followed by an "s" is meaningful because it shows that these Witnesses belong to Jehovah. This idea is taken from the passage at Isaiah 43:10 which says: "YOU are my witnesses", is the utterance of Jehovah, "even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me". One of the core beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses is that just as you and I have names, God has a name as well and it is important to use that name in worship and prayer. Therefore we find it mildly offensive to be called "Jehovahs" as that is like saying we are gods, and "Jehovah Witnesses" makes the name of God sound like an adjective. We prefer to be called by our name "Jehovah's Witnesses" or as a shortened form just "Witnesses". I assume your smile was humor about the fact that members of the Jehovah's Witnesses have on average a lower income than members of many other religions. I could comment on possible explanations for why, but this comment is already getting long.
- mcantor 16y ago
  If you (Witnesses) are happy and fulfilled with that income, then OP's schadenfreude is misguided, anyway.
  - NathanKP 16y ago
    I think there are several reasons why Jehovah's Witnesses generally have lower incomes. First of all, we do our evangelical work everywhere, to both rich and poor individuals, but in general people who are poor or immigrants or minorities are more interested in religion when compared to someone who has a high paying job and feels they are already very satisfied with their life. Second of all, Jehovah's Witnesses advocate a simple life. The idea is that it doesn't take a lot of money to live a nice life, its how you use that money. For example, a baptized Witness is not be a smoker, gambler, alcoholic, etc. By quitting the smoking or drug habit many individuals have lowered their expenses, allowing them to live better lives without raising their income. To some extent the pursuit of high education is not encouraged. Although many Witnesses will get an Associates Degree, it is generally not encouraged that they go on to higher education. This does also limit income. But to go along with your comment, yes I feel happy and fulfilled. I spend roughly half my time at the computer doing freelance web development work or working on my startup Bookflavor. The rest of the time I spend with friends or doing door to door preaching. It is actually very interesting. Imagine going door to door one weekend in an affluent neighborhood where a security guard takes down your license plate before allowing you to enter, then the next week going door to door in the ghetto where you have to watch where you step to avoid trash and used condoms. Jehovah's Witnesses get to talk to people of all sorts. As someone who is deeply interested in psychology and sociology I enjoy this communication with people from different cultural and economic backgrounds. Our door to door work is fascinating not only from that perspective, but also from the perspective of practicing real world sales skills. I would dare say any decent Jehovah's Witnesses would make a great salesman/woman. I would say that my life is very interesting, and I wouldn't be any happier if I worked more hours so that I could make more money. Indeed if I worked more hours to make more money I wouldn't have time to work on my startup.
    - sp4rki 16y ago
      I was finding your post enlightening and even started to change my opinion on Jehovah's Witnesses (myself being an atheist) up until the point where I read this "doing door to door preaching". I have nothing against your religion (or any religion for that matter), but door to door preaching seems selfish to me. I want to ask you a question, why do you feel the need to go into someone's house with the goal of converting them to your religion? I've had discussions about religion with a few Jehovah's Witnesses that have come around my home, and they've been resentful and insulting when having to deal with a two sided conversation about their religion and my lack thereof. I'm of course not saying you're the same, but from my experience, most Jehovah's Witnesses seem either fanatics or 'salespeople' (people with the need to make me buy into something they want me to). I have a problem with being disrupted in my home after a long day by someone trying to convert me into a religion I don't follow, but even then I try to be respectful and understand that people have different believes to mine. I'd expect the same treatment from a person ringing my doorbell to preach, but I have found that it very rarely is the case.
      - NathanKP 16y ago
        Why do you feel the need to go into someone's house with the goal of converting them to your religion? To make this easier to understand you could easily substitute other goals. For example, what if you knew of a treatment for diabetes or AIDS that could benefit others? Wouldn't you feel the need to tell others with diabetes and AIDS rather than leaving them to stumble across it on their own? Likewise, we feel that the morals and lifestyle we advocate are beneficial and can help many improve their lives. Therefore we want to tell other people about it. At that point other people can either say "I don't like it and don't want to hear about it," or "I like it and want to find out more." I'm sorry you have had some bad experiences with Witnesses visiting your door in the past. Naturally there are unbalanced and insulting Jehovah's Witnesses just as there are unbalanced and insulting atheists. People differ. However, I can assure you that every Jehovah's Witness is encouraged to be very respectful and polite about sharing his/her beliefs and listening to the beliefs of others. Some people's personality traits aren't up to par, but we can't stop them from going out and talking to others. Remember that every Jehovah's Witness is a volunteer so naturally some of these volunteers are going to be good, and some of them aren't going to be so good. If you experience someone who seems rude or confrontational you can tell them to leave your door, or you could get their name and complain to the local congregation (using the phone number in the local phone book). Somebody will probably talk to them and ask them to please be more polite. At any rate if you would like to try a decent, two sided conversation about religion or the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses feel free to contact me: http://about.me/nathanpeck http://about.me/nathanpeck
  - jacoblyles 16y ago
    In my church, many children that might go to college if they were part of another religion did not do so because they did not want to cross the teachings of the church. It is not forbidden to go to college, but it is highly discouraged. At the end of the road for crossing the church is disfellowshipping which means being shunned by everyone you have ever known. So most are intimidated from starting down that road. My experience is mostly with people who had the misfortune to be born into the church who live repressed and desperate lives. On the other hand, most converts come from the rank of the poor and destitute and probably see their lives improve upon joining the church due to the strict lifestyle and strong community. The poverty of Jehovah's Witnesses is mostly due to the forced ignorance of their young, since there are so few converts (at least, US growth numbers were poor in the late 90s/early 00s, probably below member fertility).
- xentronium 16y ago
  Well, sorry for misspelling, that wasn't intended. I think you deserve some explanation from my side. I don't know what it is about in USA, but here, in Russia, "Jehovah's Witnesses" is just a pyramidal sect. They spam, they visit other people's homes, they annoy you on the streets, and once someone gets to become a Jehovah's Witness, you won't see him again. That's also a reason why I wasn't really surprised by low levels of their incomes. Mostly because after you drop your job, you don't usually earn much.
  - NathanKP 16y ago
    Well I've never visited Russia, but I can assure you that here in the U.S. we definitely work, and don't drop our jobs to become Witnesses. It is just that the culture of Jehovah's Witnesses is one of self-sufficiency without overwork. We don't see the value in working long hours and overtime to make lots of money when it is possible to live a self-sufficient and enjoyable life with a medium to low income. Jehovah's Witnesses definitely do visit people's homes here in the U.S, and some people are certainly annoyed by that, but one possibly little known fact is that if you tell a Witness that you don't ever want them to come back we'll add you to a "Do Not Call List". If you are really irritated by our visits you can easily stop them. I certainly don't feel that we are a "pyramidal sect". We are a sect in the definition that our beliefs differ from those of the dominant world religions, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. Pyramidal would imply that some members are better than others or that we have some complex structure that oppresses the common member in favor of an elite class of members. On the contrary I can assure you that every member is treated equally. Naturally some members who are better at coordinating things take the lead in organizing functions and operations but these individuals are not assumed to be better than any other member, and there are no extra perks, pay, or glory going to these volunteers. I'm not sure why you would not be seeing someone after they became a Jehovah's Witness. I know that the Russian government has put major pressure on JW's in violation of their own laws on freedom of religion and as a result local JW's may find it beneficial to maintain a low profile. Another possible explanation is that after becoming JW's many choose to stop associating with former friends who they find to be living lifestyles which are immoral and who they feel might be a bad influence. As for "dropping your job" the only case where I can think of a Jehovah's Witness leaving their employment because they were a Witness would be a situation in which the person was working in the army, or in some industry directly connected to immoral activity. At any rate I'm sorry that you see the ministry work being done in Russia as "spam", and "annoying". We just want to give you free reading material that you can consider and compare with your own beliefs. If you don't like it, tell us and we'll leave you alone. If you do like it, tell us and we'll be happy to explain more to you. In my mind there are tremendous advantages to being well informed and learning about alternative cultures, so I am willing to consider ideas and reading material from numerous sources. In the end, I am the one who makes the decision about how to live my life. Jehovah's Witnesses feel that we have a very beneficial way of life that others can benefit from, so we advocate it. Why not have a serious talk with a Jehovah's Witness? In the worst case scenario we are just crazy people and you wasted your time talking to us. However, you still gained valuable information and a broader picture of the different cultures of the world. In the best case scenario you find our way of life interesting and decide to pursue it.
Donwangugi 16y ago
It's not that Jehovah's Witnesses as a religion primarily appeal to those of lower income. Instead its that many Jehovah's Witnesses decide to take lower income and part-time jobs in order to spend more time preaching. I am not trying to imply you assumed the former.
obiefernandez 16y ago
I'm guessing most exjws (like me) seeing these stats get some amount of satisfaction from seeing the fruits of incessant badgering by JW leadership against formal education put them just above historically black churces at the bottom of the graph. Despite calls for reform, college attendance for youngsters is still actively discouraged in favor of trade school and worse options (such as homeschooling). All in the name of being able to dedicate greater time evangelizing. All of us that have left know that the underlying rationale is to prevent young JWs from being exposed to rational, liberal thought that almost inevitably destroys their house of cards dogma. Yes I'm smiling too. The moral upbringing was good. The emotional baggage is not.
- NathanKP 16y ago
  In what way is homeschooling a worse option? As a Jehovah's Witness I homeschooled and was able to spend my early life learning not only the basic high school education but also how to code. I was eligible to enroll for free at a local community college at age 16, and have received a straight 4.0 GPA ever since. I feel that homeschooling did me far more good than public or private school could have. In my time going to college I have not felt that "rational, liberal thought" is in contrast to any perceived "dogma" that I have been taught as one of Jehovah's Witnesses. Also remember that the chart statistics only use income as a measure of comparison. This is fairly meaningless because lower income does not necessarily mean a worse living condition or less happiness.
  - arram 16y ago
    Another Ex-Jehovah's Witness here. I left at 18 when I discovered that evolution wasn't the nonsense I'd always been taught. There was a period where I searched desperately for any credible arguments against it, and found none. When I started talking to the people who had been telling me it was wrong, I realized that they had no idea what evolution actually was. In some cases, they didn't know the distinction between natural selection and the theories of the origin of the universe. People accuse the JW's of being a cult with good reason: members are discouraged from associating with non-members. They're also told to avoid all contact with anyone who is 'disfellowshipped' (thrown out). This means that the penalty for disagreement with the church is losing everyone you care about. 'Shunning' is a tactic very common to cults. This also means the price for being intellectually honest with yourself is very high. That's how smart people manage to continue believing in something so demonstrably false. For me to give up my faith, strong evidence wasn't enough - it took overwhelming evidence, and even then it was a very emotionally trying time. The reason their income is low is simple: the church has noticed that education is anti-correlated with membership and so they continually discourage it. Very much like a corrupt government tries to bury information injurious to itself.
jacoblyles 16y ago
I try to explain to the uninformed that there is a huge difference between JWs and Mormons. This graph does a good job at explaining one of the most important differences. The Mormons actually raise their children to be well-adjusted members of society, if a little straight-laced. P.S. Ex-JW party on Hacker News! The shunning was hard at first, but it feels so good to be out.

Just so you know I'm not the one that downvoted you, but as one of Jehovah's Witnesses myself I feel compelled to comment on one incorrect aspect of your comment. It is "Jehovah's Witnesses" not "Jehovah Witnesses" or "Jehovahs". The apostrophe followed by an "s" is meaningful because it shows that these Witnesses belong to Jehovah. This idea is taken from the passage at Isaiah 43:10 which says: "YOU are my witnesses", is the utterance of Jehovah, "even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me". One of the core beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses is that just as you and I have names, God has a name as well and it is important to use that name in worship and prayer. Therefore we find it mildly offensive to be called "Jehovahs" as that is like saying we are gods, and "Jehovah Witnesses" makes the name of God sound like an adjective. We prefer to be called by our name "Jehovah's Witnesses" or as a shortened form just "Witnesses". I assume your smile was humor about the fact that members of the Jehovah's Witnesses have on average a lower income than members of many other religions. I could comment on possible explanations for why, but this comment is already getting long.

mcantor 16y ago
If you (Witnesses) are happy and fulfilled with that income, then OP's schadenfreude is misguided, anyway.
- NathanKP 16y ago
  I think there are several reasons why Jehovah's Witnesses generally have lower incomes. First of all, we do our evangelical work everywhere, to both rich and poor individuals, but in general people who are poor or immigrants or minorities are more interested in religion when compared to someone who has a high paying job and feels they are already very satisfied with their life. Second of all, Jehovah's Witnesses advocate a simple life. The idea is that it doesn't take a lot of money to live a nice life, its how you use that money. For example, a baptized Witness is not be a smoker, gambler, alcoholic, etc. By quitting the smoking or drug habit many individuals have lowered their expenses, allowing them to live better lives without raising their income. To some extent the pursuit of high education is not encouraged. Although many Witnesses will get an Associates Degree, it is generally not encouraged that they go on to higher education. This does also limit income. But to go along with your comment, yes I feel happy and fulfilled. I spend roughly half my time at the computer doing freelance web development work or working on my startup Bookflavor. The rest of the time I spend with friends or doing door to door preaching. It is actually very interesting. Imagine going door to door one weekend in an affluent neighborhood where a security guard takes down your license plate before allowing you to enter, then the next week going door to door in the ghetto where you have to watch where you step to avoid trash and used condoms. Jehovah's Witnesses get to talk to people of all sorts. As someone who is deeply interested in psychology and sociology I enjoy this communication with people from different cultural and economic backgrounds. Our door to door work is fascinating not only from that perspective, but also from the perspective of practicing real world sales skills. I would dare say any decent Jehovah's Witnesses would make a great salesman/woman. I would say that my life is very interesting, and I wouldn't be any happier if I worked more hours so that I could make more money. Indeed if I worked more hours to make more money I wouldn't have time to work on my startup.
  - sp4rki 16y ago
    I was finding your post enlightening and even started to change my opinion on Jehovah's Witnesses (myself being an atheist) up until the point where I read this "doing door to door preaching". I have nothing against your religion (or any religion for that matter), but door to door preaching seems selfish to me. I want to ask you a question, why do you feel the need to go into someone's house with the goal of converting them to your religion? I've had discussions about religion with a few Jehovah's Witnesses that have come around my home, and they've been resentful and insulting when having to deal with a two sided conversation about their religion and my lack thereof. I'm of course not saying you're the same, but from my experience, most Jehovah's Witnesses seem either fanatics or 'salespeople' (people with the need to make me buy into something they want me to). I have a problem with being disrupted in my home after a long day by someone trying to convert me into a religion I don't follow, but even then I try to be respectful and understand that people have different believes to mine. I'd expect the same treatment from a person ringing my doorbell to preach, but I have found that it very rarely is the case.
    - NathanKP 16y ago
      Why do you feel the need to go into someone's house with the goal of converting them to your religion? To make this easier to understand you could easily substitute other goals. For example, what if you knew of a treatment for diabetes or AIDS that could benefit others? Wouldn't you feel the need to tell others with diabetes and AIDS rather than leaving them to stumble across it on their own? Likewise, we feel that the morals and lifestyle we advocate are beneficial and can help many improve their lives. Therefore we want to tell other people about it. At that point other people can either say "I don't like it and don't want to hear about it," or "I like it and want to find out more." I'm sorry you have had some bad experiences with Witnesses visiting your door in the past. Naturally there are unbalanced and insulting Jehovah's Witnesses just as there are unbalanced and insulting atheists. People differ. However, I can assure you that every Jehovah's Witness is encouraged to be very respectful and polite about sharing his/her beliefs and listening to the beliefs of others. Some people's personality traits aren't up to par, but we can't stop them from going out and talking to others. Remember that every Jehovah's Witness is a volunteer so naturally some of these volunteers are going to be good, and some of them aren't going to be so good. If you experience someone who seems rude or confrontational you can tell them to leave your door, or you could get their name and complain to the local congregation (using the phone number in the local phone book). Somebody will probably talk to them and ask them to please be more polite. At any rate if you would like to try a decent, two sided conversation about religion or the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses feel free to contact me: http://about.me/nathanpeck http://about.me/nathanpeck
- jacoblyles 16y ago
  In my church, many children that might go to college if they were part of another religion did not do so because they did not want to cross the teachings of the church. It is not forbidden to go to college, but it is highly discouraged. At the end of the road for crossing the church is disfellowshipping which means being shunned by everyone you have ever known. So most are intimidated from starting down that road. My experience is mostly with people who had the misfortune to be born into the church who live repressed and desperate lives. On the other hand, most converts come from the rank of the poor and destitute and probably see their lives improve upon joining the church due to the strict lifestyle and strong community. The poverty of Jehovah's Witnesses is mostly due to the forced ignorance of their young, since there are so few converts (at least, US growth numbers were poor in the late 90s/early 00s, probably below member fertility).
xentronium 16y ago
Well, sorry for misspelling, that wasn't intended. I think you deserve some explanation from my side. I don't know what it is about in USA, but here, in Russia, "Jehovah's Witnesses" is just a pyramidal sect. They spam, they visit other people's homes, they annoy you on the streets, and once someone gets to become a Jehovah's Witness, you won't see him again. That's also a reason why I wasn't really surprised by low levels of their incomes. Mostly because after you drop your job, you don't usually earn much.
- NathanKP 16y ago
  Well I've never visited Russia, but I can assure you that here in the U.S. we definitely work, and don't drop our jobs to become Witnesses. It is just that the culture of Jehovah's Witnesses is one of self-sufficiency without overwork. We don't see the value in working long hours and overtime to make lots of money when it is possible to live a self-sufficient and enjoyable life with a medium to low income. Jehovah's Witnesses definitely do visit people's homes here in the U.S, and some people are certainly annoyed by that, but one possibly little known fact is that if you tell a Witness that you don't ever want them to come back we'll add you to a "Do Not Call List". If you are really irritated by our visits you can easily stop them. I certainly don't feel that we are a "pyramidal sect". We are a sect in the definition that our beliefs differ from those of the dominant world religions, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. Pyramidal would imply that some members are better than others or that we have some complex structure that oppresses the common member in favor of an elite class of members. On the contrary I can assure you that every member is treated equally. Naturally some members who are better at coordinating things take the lead in organizing functions and operations but these individuals are not assumed to be better than any other member, and there are no extra perks, pay, or glory going to these volunteers. I'm not sure why you would not be seeing someone after they became a Jehovah's Witness. I know that the Russian government has put major pressure on JW's in violation of their own laws on freedom of religion and as a result local JW's may find it beneficial to maintain a low profile. Another possible explanation is that after becoming JW's many choose to stop associating with former friends who they find to be living lifestyles which are immoral and who they feel might be a bad influence. As for "dropping your job" the only case where I can think of a Jehovah's Witness leaving their employment because they were a Witness would be a situation in which the person was working in the army, or in some industry directly connected to immoral activity. At any rate I'm sorry that you see the ministry work being done in Russia as "spam", and "annoying". We just want to give you free reading material that you can consider and compare with your own beliefs. If you don't like it, tell us and we'll leave you alone. If you do like it, tell us and we'll be happy to explain more to you. In my mind there are tremendous advantages to being well informed and learning about alternative cultures, so I am willing to consider ideas and reading material from numerous sources. In the end, I am the one who makes the decision about how to live my life. Jehovah's Witnesses feel that we have a very beneficial way of life that others can benefit from, so we advocate it. Why not have a serious talk with a Jehovah's Witness? In the worst case scenario we are just crazy people and you wasted your time talking to us. However, you still gained valuable information and a broader picture of the different cultures of the world. In the best case scenario you find our way of life interesting and decide to pursue it.

Donwangugi 16y ago

It's not that Jehovah's Witnesses as a religion primarily appeal to those of lower income. Instead its that many Jehovah's Witnesses decide to take lower income and part-time jobs in order to spend more time preaching. I am not trying to imply you assumed the former.

obiefernandez 16y ago

I'm guessing most exjws (like me) seeing these stats get some amount of satisfaction from seeing the fruits of incessant badgering by JW leadership against formal education put them just above historically black churces at the bottom of the graph. Despite calls for reform, college attendance for youngsters is still actively discouraged in favor of trade school and worse options (such as homeschooling). All in the name of being able to dedicate greater time evangelizing. All of us that have left know that the underlying rationale is to prevent young JWs from being exposed to rational, liberal thought that almost inevitably destroys their house of cards dogma. Yes I'm smiling too. The moral upbringing was good. The emotional baggage is not.

NathanKP 16y ago
In what way is homeschooling a worse option? As a Jehovah's Witness I homeschooled and was able to spend my early life learning not only the basic high school education but also how to code. I was eligible to enroll for free at a local community college at age 16, and have received a straight 4.0 GPA ever since. I feel that homeschooling did me far more good than public or private school could have. In my time going to college I have not felt that "rational, liberal thought" is in contrast to any perceived "dogma" that I have been taught as one of Jehovah's Witnesses. Also remember that the chart statistics only use income as a measure of comparison. This is fairly meaningless because lower income does not necessarily mean a worse living condition or less happiness.
- arram 16y ago
  Another Ex-Jehovah's Witness here. I left at 18 when I discovered that evolution wasn't the nonsense I'd always been taught. There was a period where I searched desperately for any credible arguments against it, and found none. When I started talking to the people who had been telling me it was wrong, I realized that they had no idea what evolution actually was. In some cases, they didn't know the distinction between natural selection and the theories of the origin of the universe. People accuse the JW's of being a cult with good reason: members are discouraged from associating with non-members. They're also told to avoid all contact with anyone who is 'disfellowshipped' (thrown out). This means that the penalty for disagreement with the church is losing everyone you care about. 'Shunning' is a tactic very common to cults. This also means the price for being intellectually honest with yourself is very high. That's how smart people manage to continue believing in something so demonstrably false. For me to give up my faith, strong evidence wasn't enough - it took overwhelming evidence, and even then it was a very emotionally trying time. The reason their income is low is simple: the church has noticed that education is anti-correlated with membership and so they continually discourage it. Very much like a corrupt government tries to bury information injurious to itself.

jacoblyles 16y ago

I try to explain to the uninformed that there is a huge difference between JWs and Mormons. This graph does a good job at explaining one of the most important differences. The Mormons actually raise their children to be well-adjusted members of society, if a little straight-laced. P.S. Ex-JW party on Hacker News! The shunning was hard at first, but it feels so good to be out.