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I expect my devices to uphold the security model they advertise. My desktop OS (macOS, for what it matters) doesn't ask me to approve permissions for apps, so

by JadeNB 7y ago

I expect my devices to uphold the security model they advertise. My desktop OS (macOS, for what it matters) doesn't ask me to approve permissions for apps, so I assume that anything I install has whatever privileges I have (or root privileges, given the broken must-install-as-root behaviour of many of them). On the other hand, for example, Firefox asks my permission before allowing sites to use the microphone or camera, and I expect it to enforce that. If sites can get access to my microphone or camera without my giving them permission, then Firefox has failed, even if those sites have got that access through unexpected means. I agree it's very hard to have a secure but useable general-purpose system—but pretending that you're offering such a system while not actually having the appropriate mechanisms to enforce it is, arguably, an even worse solution than offering an utterly locked-down system.

mirimir 7y ago
Here's a simple experiment. On a Linux box, open your GUI text editor. Try to open /var/log/syslog. You will see "Permission denied". That's because only apps with root can access /var/*.
- JadeNB 7y ago
  I agree that's a simple experiment. What does it demonstrate?
  - mirimir 7y ago
    You said this: > I assume that anything I install has whatever privileges I have (or root privileges, given the broken must-install-as-root behaviour of many of them). My point is that Linux apps don't have general root rights. Even though you must install them as root. That is, unless you start them as root. So an app can't just decide to access and change some other app's settings.
    - JadeNB 7y ago
      > My point is that Linux apps don't have general root rights. Even though you must install them as root. That is, unless you start them as root. I'm running macOS, so this isn't directly relevant; I don't know much about Linux apps, but macOS ones often do some skulduggery—for example, Dropbox uses its root installation privileges to make some very hard-to-eradicate startup items (https://applehelpwriter.com/2016/08/29/discovering-how-dropbox-hacks-your-mac https://applehelpwriter.com/2016/08/29/discovering-how-dropb...). Nonetheless, you are right that I was confusing "installed as root" with "has root privileges". > So an app can't just decide to access and change some other app's settings. Hopefully!—at least if this happens it's a bug.
JadeNB 7y ago
Just as an added point for my claim that this position is not hypocritical, I consider https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20387298 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20387298 to be a flaw in the macOS security model, for which the OS deserves blame, and not just an instance of poor app design (although it is clearly that).

by JadeNB 7y ago

mirimir 7y ago

Here's a simple experiment. On a Linux box, open your GUI text editor. Try to open /var/log/syslog. You will see "Permission denied". That's because only apps with root can access /var/*.

JadeNB 7y ago
I agree that's a simple experiment. What does it demonstrate?
- mirimir 7y ago
  You said this: > I assume that anything I install has whatever privileges I have (or root privileges, given the broken must-install-as-root behaviour of many of them). My point is that Linux apps don't have general root rights. Even though you must install them as root. That is, unless you start them as root. So an app can't just decide to access and change some other app's settings.
  - JadeNB 7y ago
    > My point is that Linux apps don't have general root rights. Even though you must install them as root. That is, unless you start them as root. I'm running macOS, so this isn't directly relevant; I don't know much about Linux apps, but macOS ones often do some skulduggery—for example, Dropbox uses its root installation privileges to make some very hard-to-eradicate startup items (https://applehelpwriter.com/2016/08/29/discovering-how-dropbox-hacks-your-mac https://applehelpwriter.com/2016/08/29/discovering-how-dropb...). Nonetheless, you are right that I was confusing "installed as root" with "has root privileges". > So an app can't just decide to access and change some other app's settings. Hopefully!—at least if this happens it's a bug.

JadeNB 7y ago

Just as an added point for my claim that this position is not hypocritical, I consider https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20387298 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20387298 to be a flaw in the macOS security model, for which the OS deserves blame, and not just an instance of poor app design (although it is clearly that).