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> minimal GUI which had stuff like sliders, and most importantly knobs which general GUIs typically don't provide. They don't provide knobs because they're a b

> minimal GUI which had stuff like sliders, and most importantly knobs which general GUIs typically don't provide. They don't provide knobs because they're a bad idea for input. Holding mousedown while drawing an invisible arc with the cursor is an awkward way to change a value. Sliders are generally better but still not great on interfaces with cursors (they're better on touchscreens). Skeuomorphism can be a useful visual design cue but it needs to be secondary to the input capabilities of the device. Up and down arrow buttons(or plus/minus, or whatever makes sense for the value) are very compact and operable with a variety of input methods. Buttons need a way display the value but there are many options including putting them in the center of a ring of numbers like a knob would use.

vbsteven 7y ago
In a good knob it’s not an arc but just clicking and dragging straight up or down that makes it move. A lot of VST audio plugins work like this and they get a lot of controls into a small area like this.
- extra88 7y ago
  But then the gesture doesn't correspond to the interface at all. You could get the compactness plus a visual that corresponds by having something like a vertical slider that appears when you mousedown on the spot.
  - jcelerier 7y ago
    > But then the gesture doesn't correspond to the interface at all. I remember learning soft synths when I was 11 - 12 years old and back then it maybe took me a few minutes to get it. Come on.
bch 7y ago
> They don't provide knobs because they're a bad idea for input I like knobs because the distance from the center of that control (radius of your arc movement) can be a “fineness” or “coarseness” control. I think sliders don’t usually offer this.
- rickbutton 7y ago
  Some iPhone apps provide this for the time slider (I believe via the native media player control, although I could be wrong). It is very nice.
  - bch 7y ago
    I’ve seen this too, and yes, it’s nice. I don’t know where in the stack this feature lives.
holy_city 7y ago
That's why you don't use circular dragging for a knob, you use vertical/horizontal drags (or a combination of both, JUCE supports those for reference, I forget what it defaults to). I've only seen rotary dragging in a handful of products and it always sucks. Arrow buttons are pointless when you're trying to dial in a value - which is the whole point of using knobs in audio software. They don't give you adjustable granularity or an easy way to continuously adjust - and if you do give it those functions, you've made a knob without the visual feedback of knob position. Or like you say, put it in the center of a ring of numbers, but again, you've just made a knob!
- extra88 7y ago
  Yes, if you have to click up, then down, then up again, and down to nail down a "just right" value, those buttons would be more difficult but their operation would be apparent. You might be able to get to a "just right" value if mousedown can be held while the cursor is moved between the buttons but a slider is probably better. The knob behavior you're describing is essentially an invisible slider. An invisible line is better than an invisible arc but it's still not good. Why not make it visible? A visible slider could appear on mousedown so there's something that corresponds to the gesture.
  - holy_city 7y ago
    It's not non-intuitive. The most acclaimed UIs for audio software are littered with knobs, and they have to be. You're talking about dozens to hundreds of continuous parameters that need to be dialed in by hand in conjunction with the user's ears. It's also common practice to have a hotkey like ctrl to swap between coarse/fine tuning of the parameters, so you can dial it in without changing controls or letting go of the mouse - which is often done in real time during playback. In your first example, you've just made a knob that doesn't look like a knob. In your second example, you're confusing mouse position and gesture. Linear sliders map mouse position to state changes, rotaries map gesture. Another way of looking at it is that a rotary slider's state is decoupled from the input, and in doing so, is a much more responsive control. Not to mention, you have an infinite 2D area to traverse to change the knob value with respect to the widget itself, not a finite, defined path. And the huge reason that linear sliders (at least off the shelf ones) are impossible to use for audio UIs is that 99% of your user's time is spent adjusting from the previous position, not resetting it to a new one. That means any behavior where a click resets the position (like clicking just past the current position) is broken. Not just because it's trash UX for the application, but because in audio systems jumping parameter values can cause artifacts, and mitigating them is not without cost in performance and fidelity.

vbsteven 7y ago

In a good knob it’s not an arc but just clicking and dragging straight up or down that makes it move. A lot of VST audio plugins work like this and they get a lot of controls into a small area like this.

extra88 7y ago
But then the gesture doesn't correspond to the interface at all. You could get the compactness plus a visual that corresponds by having something like a vertical slider that appears when you mousedown on the spot.
- jcelerier 7y ago
  > But then the gesture doesn't correspond to the interface at all. I remember learning soft synths when I was 11 - 12 years old and back then it maybe took me a few minutes to get it. Come on.

bch 7y ago

> They don't provide knobs because they're a bad idea for input I like knobs because the distance from the center of that control (radius of your arc movement) can be a “fineness” or “coarseness” control. I think sliders don’t usually offer this.

rickbutton 7y ago
Some iPhone apps provide this for the time slider (I believe via the native media player control, although I could be wrong). It is very nice.
- bch 7y ago
  I’ve seen this too, and yes, it’s nice. I don’t know where in the stack this feature lives.

holy_city 7y ago

That's why you don't use circular dragging for a knob, you use vertical/horizontal drags (or a combination of both, JUCE supports those for reference, I forget what it defaults to). I've only seen rotary dragging in a handful of products and it always sucks. Arrow buttons are pointless when you're trying to dial in a value - which is the whole point of using knobs in audio software. They don't give you adjustable granularity or an easy way to continuously adjust - and if you do give it those functions, you've made a knob without the visual feedback of knob position. Or like you say, put it in the center of a ring of numbers, but again, you've just made a knob!

extra88 7y ago
Yes, if you have to click up, then down, then up again, and down to nail down a "just right" value, those buttons would be more difficult but their operation would be apparent. You might be able to get to a "just right" value if mousedown can be held while the cursor is moved between the buttons but a slider is probably better. The knob behavior you're describing is essentially an invisible slider. An invisible line is better than an invisible arc but it's still not good. Why not make it visible? A visible slider could appear on mousedown so there's something that corresponds to the gesture.
- holy_city 7y ago
  It's not non-intuitive. The most acclaimed UIs for audio software are littered with knobs, and they have to be. You're talking about dozens to hundreds of continuous parameters that need to be dialed in by hand in conjunction with the user's ears. It's also common practice to have a hotkey like ctrl to swap between coarse/fine tuning of the parameters, so you can dial it in without changing controls or letting go of the mouse - which is often done in real time during playback. In your first example, you've just made a knob that doesn't look like a knob. In your second example, you're confusing mouse position and gesture. Linear sliders map mouse position to state changes, rotaries map gesture. Another way of looking at it is that a rotary slider's state is decoupled from the input, and in doing so, is a much more responsive control. Not to mention, you have an infinite 2D area to traverse to change the knob value with respect to the widget itself, not a finite, defined path. And the huge reason that linear sliders (at least off the shelf ones) are impossible to use for audio UIs is that 99% of your user's time is spent adjusting from the previous position, not resetting it to a new one. That means any behavior where a click resets the position (like clicking just past the current position) is broken. Not just because it's trash UX for the application, but because in audio systems jumping parameter values can cause artifacts, and mitigating them is not without cost in performance and fidelity.