4 ms·

Rope memory is so fascinating and economical. Just wires and only one metal rings for each word, which can be hundreds of bits longs. My question is: is it poss

Rope memory is so fascinating and economical. Just wires and only one metal rings for each word, which can be hundreds of bits longs. My question is: is it possible to construct a finite state machine only with rope memory and mechanical relays and maybe capacitors. You can perhaps raise reading voltages so high, that the signal is detectable with relay coil. This would be the first real steam-punk, post-apocalyptic computer that people with early iron age technology can construct themselves.

throwaway2048 7y ago
Arguably, a finite state machine is not a computer, its logically equivalent to clockwork, which has been around for thousands of years. Although I do like the sound of your idea...
- wongarsu 7y ago
  Computers are really just finite state machines with really fancy input and output. We like to pretend they are Turing machines, but that breaks down when you run out of RAM: a Turing machine has infinite memory, a computer has a large finite amount of memory. I suppose computers really are fancy clockwork. So are humans.
  - ForHackernews 7y ago
    I think it's at least an open question whether humans are fancy clockwork or not. (Unless all you're doing is denying Cartesian dualism, in which case, I agree but so does everyone) We don't really understand how the brain works, but it does seem that neuronal integration is an analog and probabilistic process, quite different from deterministic responses in computers (or clockwork). Some people have even speculated about quantum mechanical effects, though those hypotheses are very controversial and I don't put much stock in them personally. It's overly reductive to compare the brain to a computer, and the analogy tends to obscure more than it illuminates. https://mindmatters.ai/2018/08/the-brain-is-not-a-meat-computer/ https://mindmatters.ai/2018/08/the-brain-is-not-a-meat-compu... https://aeon.co/essays/your-brain-does-not-process-information-and-it-is-not-a-computer https://aeon.co/essays/your-brain-does-not-process-informati...
    - penagwin 7y ago
      I know this is controversial but I've always felt the entire universe is Deterministic which would make it just a massive State-Machine. We as humans might be missing the right equations/right measurements/precision to actually figure out it's exact state.
      - ForHackernews 7y ago
        Maybe. As far as anyone can determine, some physical processes (e.g. radioactive decay) really are random. There is "noise" in reality. Even with a perfect accounting of every subatomic particle in the universe, you couldn't predict when a particular atom will decay.
- pests 7y ago
  Honestly though a computer is just clockwork represented electronically. A modern computer can be represented mechanically even the display. Imagine colored marbles roll into a display slot every frame. Or a rotor rotates to a color. Or a flpboard flips to a character. We are just accustomed to computers being electrical. In the end it's all binary and we just happen to all use digital input and output.
kens 7y ago
Relay computers were a thing in the 1940s, for example Zuse's computers, Stibitz's machines at Bell Labs, the Harvard Mark I and IBM's SSEC. Vacuum tubes were orders of magnitude faster and killed them off, though. As far as using core rope with relays, you'd probably need to wrap each wire around the core many times (transformer-style) to get enough voltage to trip a relay. The raw signals from cores are really small and hard to detect even with ICs. https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/relay_computer https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/relay_computer
DerekL 7y ago
Well, you can construct a mechanical Turing machine out of wood. I saw it on HN a few weeks ago. https://siamagazin.com/mechanical-turing-machine-in-wood/ https://siamagazin.com/mechanical-turing-machine-in-wood/ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20219442 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20219442
- taneq 7y ago
  There's a board game based on Turing machines too, while we're at it. https://www.turingtumble.com/ https://www.turingtumble.com/
WorldMaker 7y ago
Since the post the other day on the rope memory I've been toying with "Loompunk" story ideas. Relatedly, Jacquard Looms were some of the earliest punch card-based "computers" as well. There's probably some set of interesting bootstrap paths to general computing entirely from the textile world.

throwaway2048 7y ago

Arguably, a finite state machine is not a computer, its logically equivalent to clockwork, which has been around for thousands of years. Although I do like the sound of your idea...

wongarsu 7y ago
Computers are really just finite state machines with really fancy input and output. We like to pretend they are Turing machines, but that breaks down when you run out of RAM: a Turing machine has infinite memory, a computer has a large finite amount of memory. I suppose computers really are fancy clockwork. So are humans.
- ForHackernews 7y ago
  I think it's at least an open question whether humans are fancy clockwork or not. (Unless all you're doing is denying Cartesian dualism, in which case, I agree but so does everyone) We don't really understand how the brain works, but it does seem that neuronal integration is an analog and probabilistic process, quite different from deterministic responses in computers (or clockwork). Some people have even speculated about quantum mechanical effects, though those hypotheses are very controversial and I don't put much stock in them personally. It's overly reductive to compare the brain to a computer, and the analogy tends to obscure more than it illuminates. https://mindmatters.ai/2018/08/the-brain-is-not-a-meat-computer/ https://mindmatters.ai/2018/08/the-brain-is-not-a-meat-compu... https://aeon.co/essays/your-brain-does-not-process-information-and-it-is-not-a-computer https://aeon.co/essays/your-brain-does-not-process-informati...
  - penagwin 7y ago
    I know this is controversial but I've always felt the entire universe is Deterministic which would make it just a massive State-Machine. We as humans might be missing the right equations/right measurements/precision to actually figure out it's exact state.
    - ForHackernews 7y ago
      Maybe. As far as anyone can determine, some physical processes (e.g. radioactive decay) really are random. There is "noise" in reality. Even with a perfect accounting of every subatomic particle in the universe, you couldn't predict when a particular atom will decay.
pests 7y ago
Honestly though a computer is just clockwork represented electronically. A modern computer can be represented mechanically even the display. Imagine colored marbles roll into a display slot every frame. Or a rotor rotates to a color. Or a flpboard flips to a character. We are just accustomed to computers being electrical. In the end it's all binary and we just happen to all use digital input and output.

kens 7y ago

Relay computers were a thing in the 1940s, for example Zuse's computers, Stibitz's machines at Bell Labs, the Harvard Mark I and IBM's SSEC. Vacuum tubes were orders of magnitude faster and killed them off, though. As far as using core rope with relays, you'd probably need to wrap each wire around the core many times (transformer-style) to get enough voltage to trip a relay. The raw signals from cores are really small and hard to detect even with ICs. https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/relay_computer https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/relay_computer

DerekL 7y ago

Well, you can construct a mechanical Turing machine out of wood. I saw it on HN a few weeks ago. https://siamagazin.com/mechanical-turing-machine-in-wood/ https://siamagazin.com/mechanical-turing-machine-in-wood/ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20219442 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20219442

taneq 7y ago
There's a board game based on Turing machines too, while we're at it. https://www.turingtumble.com/ https://www.turingtumble.com/

WorldMaker 7y ago

Since the post the other day on the rope memory I've been toying with "Loompunk" story ideas. Relatedly, Jacquard Looms were some of the earliest punch card-based "computers" as well. There's probably some set of interesting bootstrap paths to general computing entirely from the textile world.