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> So basically, they can't read your location, but they can read other things that contain your (previous) location Yes, and I think we could make a good case

> So basically, they can't read your location, but they can read other things that contain your (previous) location Yes, and I think we could make a good case that the Android platform did a poor job of clarifying this to the user. I would guess that the typical android user thinks "location permission" means location data of any type as generated by any subsystem on the device. To whom would a reasonable user assign responsibility for this protection failure -- app developers or the Android platform?

ocdtrekkie 7y ago
I mean, as much as I'd like to give Android crud here, I think this is incredibly unethical developer behavior, and it's kind of incredible to see we still have so many people in the industry who think scraping location data out of people's stored photos for advertising data is okay. It's well outside the realm of something I'd think someone would even try to do, especially from a pretty legitimate company like Shutterfly.
- JadeNB 7y ago
  > I mean, as much as I'd like to give Android crud here, I think this is incredibly unethical developer behavior …. Right, but "our system will protect you from ethical developers!" isn't much of a security model, so I think there's still plenty of blame for Android here.
  - izacus 7y ago
    What exactly is the blame of Android? That it allows the app to read photos when user allows it to read photo files? Because this criminal behaviour is also present in Linux, Windows and macOS. Or the fact that an app can write a file to disk? And then another app can open the file? Also criminal behaviour present in other operating systems. Some users might even call it a feature and do the unthinkable - share files between applications! Horrible! Seriously, you're blaming the OS because it allows you to run useful software on it, just like a desktop computer. If you want a jailed down device, it's fine: buy Apple. But that doesn't mean every pocket computer needs to be a crippled device.
    - nerdjon 7y ago
      I would not consider my iPhone to be a crippled device. Just because these issues exist on a traditional computing device, does not mean we should continue that trend when a new type of platform exists (mobile). Plus, many of us likely have much more personal data on our phones that we ever had on our computers, especially location data for where you are all the time. This is absolutely a failure of the OS, but if you choose to accept that fine. But the issue is for those that are not in the tech community and don't realize there data is being mined when they specially chose the option to deny it.
    - JadeNB 7y ago
      I expect my devices to uphold the security model they advertise. My desktop OS (macOS, for what it matters) doesn't ask me to approve permissions for apps, so I assume that anything I install has whatever privileges I have (or root privileges, given the broken must-install-as-root behaviour of many of them). On the other hand, for example, Firefox asks my permission before allowing sites to use the microphone or camera, and I expect it to enforce that. If sites can get access to my microphone or camera without my giving them permission, then Firefox has failed, even if those sites have got that access through unexpected means. I agree it's very hard to have a secure but useable general-purpose system—but pretending that you're offering such a system while not actually having the appropriate mechanisms to enforce it is, arguably, an even worse solution than offering an utterly locked-down system.
      - mirimir 7y ago
        Here's a simple experiment. On a Linux box, open your GUI text editor. Try to open /var/log/syslog. You will see "Permission denied". That's because only apps with root can access /var/*.
        JadeNB 7y ago
        I agree that's a simple experiment. What does it demonstrate?
        7y ago
- scarface74 7y ago
  Yes Android is to blame. The entire idea behind a sandboxed mobile OS is that random developers can’t be trusted not to invade your privacy. But honestly neither can Google, but that’s another story...
  - lern_too_spel 7y ago
    If you upload a picture to Shutterfly, that is a user specifically putting the photo in the app's sandbox. The same thing happens on every other OS.
    - scarface74 7y ago
      Not with iOS. There is a separate media library API that’s separate from the file access API. You can give an app permission to access your media library without giving it access to the location metadata. The app has to specifically ask for location access to get the metadata.
      - lern_too_spel 7y ago
        > The app has to specifically ask for location access to get the metadata. Source? https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/335809/can-ios-apps-read-the-location-metadata-when-allowing-access-to-photos https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/335809/can-ios-app... disagrees with your claim.
      - kalleboo 7y ago
        > You can give an app permission to access your media library without giving it access to the location metadata. The app has to specifically ask for location access to get the metadata I believe this used to be true, but it's not anymore. I just tested it and even without location permissions, the location EXIF is included
aw3c2 7y ago
Does iOS do anything to prevent this?
- izacus 7y ago
  Yes, iOS prevents you from directly accessing the images and apps sharing files between themselves. Which has been one of the major reasons some people used Android - the ability to use their phone more like a computer.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    No, iOS prevents the application from directly accessing files without the user’s permission. The user can choose to allow access granularly to a file via the file picker within the app. There are also separate permissions to allow apps to read and write from the media library.

ocdtrekkie 7y ago

I mean, as much as I'd like to give Android crud here, I think this is incredibly unethical developer behavior, and it's kind of incredible to see we still have so many people in the industry who think scraping location data out of people's stored photos for advertising data is okay. It's well outside the realm of something I'd think someone would even try to do, especially from a pretty legitimate company like Shutterfly.

JadeNB 7y ago
> I mean, as much as I'd like to give Android crud here, I think this is incredibly unethical developer behavior …. Right, but "our system will protect you from ethical developers!" isn't much of a security model, so I think there's still plenty of blame for Android here.
- izacus 7y ago
  What exactly is the blame of Android? That it allows the app to read photos when user allows it to read photo files? Because this criminal behaviour is also present in Linux, Windows and macOS. Or the fact that an app can write a file to disk? And then another app can open the file? Also criminal behaviour present in other operating systems. Some users might even call it a feature and do the unthinkable - share files between applications! Horrible! Seriously, you're blaming the OS because it allows you to run useful software on it, just like a desktop computer. If you want a jailed down device, it's fine: buy Apple. But that doesn't mean every pocket computer needs to be a crippled device.
  - nerdjon 7y ago
    I would not consider my iPhone to be a crippled device. Just because these issues exist on a traditional computing device, does not mean we should continue that trend when a new type of platform exists (mobile). Plus, many of us likely have much more personal data on our phones that we ever had on our computers, especially location data for where you are all the time. This is absolutely a failure of the OS, but if you choose to accept that fine. But the issue is for those that are not in the tech community and don't realize there data is being mined when they specially chose the option to deny it.
  - JadeNB 7y ago
    I expect my devices to uphold the security model they advertise. My desktop OS (macOS, for what it matters) doesn't ask me to approve permissions for apps, so I assume that anything I install has whatever privileges I have (or root privileges, given the broken must-install-as-root behaviour of many of them). On the other hand, for example, Firefox asks my permission before allowing sites to use the microphone or camera, and I expect it to enforce that. If sites can get access to my microphone or camera without my giving them permission, then Firefox has failed, even if those sites have got that access through unexpected means. I agree it's very hard to have a secure but useable general-purpose system—but pretending that you're offering such a system while not actually having the appropriate mechanisms to enforce it is, arguably, an even worse solution than offering an utterly locked-down system.
    - mirimir 7y ago
      Here's a simple experiment. On a Linux box, open your GUI text editor. Try to open /var/log/syslog. You will see "Permission denied". That's because only apps with root can access /var/*.
      - JadeNB 7y ago
        I agree that's a simple experiment. What does it demonstrate?
        7y ago
scarface74 7y ago
Yes Android is to blame. The entire idea behind a sandboxed mobile OS is that random developers can’t be trusted not to invade your privacy. But honestly neither can Google, but that’s another story...
- lern_too_spel 7y ago
  If you upload a picture to Shutterfly, that is a user specifically putting the photo in the app's sandbox. The same thing happens on every other OS.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    Not with iOS. There is a separate media library API that’s separate from the file access API. You can give an app permission to access your media library without giving it access to the location metadata. The app has to specifically ask for location access to get the metadata.
    - lern_too_spel 7y ago
      > The app has to specifically ask for location access to get the metadata. Source? https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/335809/can-ios-apps-read-the-location-metadata-when-allowing-access-to-photos https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/335809/can-ios-app... disagrees with your claim.
    - kalleboo 7y ago
      > You can give an app permission to access your media library without giving it access to the location metadata. The app has to specifically ask for location access to get the metadata I believe this used to be true, but it's not anymore. I just tested it and even without location permissions, the location EXIF is included

aw3c2 7y ago

Does iOS do anything to prevent this?

izacus 7y ago
Yes, iOS prevents you from directly accessing the images and apps sharing files between themselves. Which has been one of the major reasons some people used Android - the ability to use their phone more like a computer.
- scarface74 7y ago
  No, iOS prevents the application from directly accessing files without the user’s permission. The user can choose to allow access granularly to a file via the file picker within the app. There are also separate permissions to allow apps to read and write from the media library.