4 ms·

How confident are you that this climate will continue for the rest of your working life? How confident are you that this climate will extend past your working l

How confident are you that this climate will continue for the rest of your working life? How confident are you that this climate will extend past your working life?

dymk 7y ago
We can form a union when we need to form a union. There's no point in forming one just in case software engineering no longer becomes a sought-after skilled job.
- moorhosj 7y ago
  ==We can form a union when we need to form a union.== In my 35 years of life, it has become harder to start a union, so it isn't out of the question that it becomes harder and harder to start a union when software engineers "need to". There's no guarantee that what exists today will exist tomorrow.
  - dymk 7y ago
    I agree with that, but I don't agree with the underlying notion of us ever needing to unionize. Do people actually think that software engineering is going to become a job that isn't skilled, and isn't sought after?
    - moorhosj 7y ago
      ==Do people actually think that software engineering is going to become a job that isn't skilled, and isn't sought after?== I'm not sure why you would be so sure it wouldn't. Are the software engineers of today truly that different from the machinists of yesterday? If you believe in the free market, then it is elementary that more people will flood into these careers which will lower the wages and diminish the bargaining power of existing software engineers.
      - dymk 7y ago
        If your argument about it being elementary for people to flood into the career were true, then why have far older and desirable professions like law and medicine continued to be incredibly well paying? Software is hard, humans have a hard time doing hard things, that's why we get paid more.
        moorhosj 7y ago
        ==then why have far older and desirable professions like law and medicine continued to be incredibly well paying?== These are actually two perfect examples to illustrate my point. Both industries are represented by organizations that systematically make it harder for more people to enter the profession (AMA for medicine and Bar Association for legal). They have eschewed the free market in favor of regulatory capture in order to maintain their market advantage. ==Software is hard, humans have a hard time doing hard things, that's why we get paid more.== Same could have been said of building cars and planes 50 years ago.
        dymk 7y ago
        == Same could have been said of building cars and planes 50 years ago. == ...and automotive and aerospace engineers are still paid quite well.
        Apocryphon 7y ago
        Looks like they've got a union: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_Professional_Engineering_Employees_in_Aerospace https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_Professional_Engine...
- Pfhreak 7y ago
  How shortsighted: "We can form a union when we're in a disadvantageous position." There's plenty of stuff that software engineers could want to improve today around oncall, long hours, IP restrictions, non-competes, pay transparency, parental leave, equity, promotion and career management, educational benefits, age/gender/racial/etc discrimination, health care, etc. When we're in a position of power is a great time for us to form a union and start tackling some of the second tier of issues (like non-competes). If not now, when?
  - dymk 7y ago
    If I'm not happy with my company, I leave the company. It's not that hard. And I don't pay any dues to a union for that right. Non-competes are unenforceable in California. Do you actually think that writing software is going to be come an unskilled job some day?
    - Pfhreak 7y ago
      >If I'm not happy with my company, I leave the company. This presupposes that you'll have a list of companies to join that have all the benefits that you want. > Non-competes are unenforceable in California. Great. Tech work happens nationwide. You could say, "I got mine in California" or you could help pull up others. I believe that it's worthwhile, sometimes, for me to spend some of my income to help others reach a better station. > Do you actually think that writing software is going to be come an unskilled job some day? Do you not? Also, there are plenty of workers in tech who aren't software developers. We should be helping them get benefits as well.
      - dymk 7y ago
        > This presupposes that you'll have a list of companies to join that have all the benefits that you want. Does anyone, anywhere, have a list of companies that checks literally all their boxes? > I believe that it's worthwhile, sometimes, for me to spend some of my income to help others reach a better station. Again, I don't think that software engineering is in a position that needs unionizing. This argument is nil to me. You're asking me to spend my income for something I don't see as a net gain. > Do you not? Also, there are plenty of workers in tech who aren't software developers. We should be helping them get benefits as well. You've suddenly moved the goalposts to be about something other than software engineers, which is not what we were talking about. If another profession wants to go unionize, more power to them. I don't see my profession as benefiting, hence I'm arguing against it.
- erobbins 7y ago
  The problem is you can't form one when you need it, because then it's too late. You have to do it ahead of time, when you think you probably don't need it, because that's when you have the upper hand.
eanzenberg 7y ago
Thx for utilizing fear.

How confident are you that this climate will continue for the rest of your working life? How confident are you that this climate will extend past your working life?

dymk 7y ago

We can form a union when we need to form a union. There's no point in forming one just in case software engineering no longer becomes a sought-after skilled job.

moorhosj 7y ago
==We can form a union when we need to form a union.== In my 35 years of life, it has become harder to start a union, so it isn't out of the question that it becomes harder and harder to start a union when software engineers "need to". There's no guarantee that what exists today will exist tomorrow.
- dymk 7y ago
  I agree with that, but I don't agree with the underlying notion of us ever needing to unionize. Do people actually think that software engineering is going to become a job that isn't skilled, and isn't sought after?
  - moorhosj 7y ago
    ==Do people actually think that software engineering is going to become a job that isn't skilled, and isn't sought after?== I'm not sure why you would be so sure it wouldn't. Are the software engineers of today truly that different from the machinists of yesterday? If you believe in the free market, then it is elementary that more people will flood into these careers which will lower the wages and diminish the bargaining power of existing software engineers.
    - dymk 7y ago
      If your argument about it being elementary for people to flood into the career were true, then why have far older and desirable professions like law and medicine continued to be incredibly well paying? Software is hard, humans have a hard time doing hard things, that's why we get paid more.
      - moorhosj 7y ago
        ==then why have far older and desirable professions like law and medicine continued to be incredibly well paying?== These are actually two perfect examples to illustrate my point. Both industries are represented by organizations that systematically make it harder for more people to enter the profession (AMA for medicine and Bar Association for legal). They have eschewed the free market in favor of regulatory capture in order to maintain their market advantage. ==Software is hard, humans have a hard time doing hard things, that's why we get paid more.== Same could have been said of building cars and planes 50 years ago.
        dymk 7y ago
        == Same could have been said of building cars and planes 50 years ago. == ...and automotive and aerospace engineers are still paid quite well.
        Apocryphon 7y ago
        Looks like they've got a union: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_Professional_Engineering_Employees_in_Aerospace https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_Professional_Engine...
Pfhreak 7y ago
How shortsighted: "We can form a union when we're in a disadvantageous position." There's plenty of stuff that software engineers could want to improve today around oncall, long hours, IP restrictions, non-competes, pay transparency, parental leave, equity, promotion and career management, educational benefits, age/gender/racial/etc discrimination, health care, etc. When we're in a position of power is a great time for us to form a union and start tackling some of the second tier of issues (like non-competes). If not now, when?
- dymk 7y ago
  If I'm not happy with my company, I leave the company. It's not that hard. And I don't pay any dues to a union for that right. Non-competes are unenforceable in California. Do you actually think that writing software is going to be come an unskilled job some day?
  - Pfhreak 7y ago
    >If I'm not happy with my company, I leave the company. This presupposes that you'll have a list of companies to join that have all the benefits that you want. > Non-competes are unenforceable in California. Great. Tech work happens nationwide. You could say, "I got mine in California" or you could help pull up others. I believe that it's worthwhile, sometimes, for me to spend some of my income to help others reach a better station. > Do you actually think that writing software is going to be come an unskilled job some day? Do you not? Also, there are plenty of workers in tech who aren't software developers. We should be helping them get benefits as well.
    - dymk 7y ago
      > This presupposes that you'll have a list of companies to join that have all the benefits that you want. Does anyone, anywhere, have a list of companies that checks literally all their boxes? > I believe that it's worthwhile, sometimes, for me to spend some of my income to help others reach a better station. Again, I don't think that software engineering is in a position that needs unionizing. This argument is nil to me. You're asking me to spend my income for something I don't see as a net gain. > Do you not? Also, there are plenty of workers in tech who aren't software developers. We should be helping them get benefits as well. You've suddenly moved the goalposts to be about something other than software engineers, which is not what we were talking about. If another profession wants to go unionize, more power to them. I don't see my profession as benefiting, hence I'm arguing against it.
erobbins 7y ago
The problem is you can't form one when you need it, because then it's too late. You have to do it ahead of time, when you think you probably don't need it, because that's when you have the upper hand.

eanzenberg 7y ago

Thx for utilizing fear.