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Amateur Radio is a lot like STEM. One of it's goals is to encourage people to get "into" thinking and planning for the situations where amateur radio is a usefu

Amateur Radio is a lot like STEM. One of it's goals is to encourage people to get "into" thinking and planning for the situations where amateur radio is a useful public service. The hobby portion exists to give people the freedom to experiment and test their skills. Part 97 of the CFR[0] actually gives the reason/spirit: > (a) Recognition and enhancement of the value of the amateur service to the public as a voluntary noncommercial communication service, particularly with respect to providing emergency communications. > (b) Continuation and extension of the amateur's proven ability to contribute to the advancement of the radio art. > (c) Encouragement and improvement of the amateur service through rules which provide for advancing skills in both the communication and technical phases of the art. > (d) Expansion of the existing reservoir within the amateur radio service of trained operators, technicians, and electronics experts. > (e) Continuation and extension of the amateur's unique ability to enhance international goodwill. [0]: https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=d4b3c60d2d60000a147f885bdee88264&mc=true&node=pt47.5.97&rgn=div5 https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=d4b3c60d2d60000a14...

msla 7y ago
> Amateur Radio is a lot like STEM. One of it's goals is to encourage people to get "into" thinking and planning for the situations where amateur radio is a useful public service. The hobby portion exists to give people the freedom to experiment and test their skills. And these days, an important skill is security, and security thinking, which requires modern encryption. The government currently demands to eavesdrop on all ham communications. Well, of course it does. It's a government. Standing up to such nonsense is a skill in itself, and one which should be cultivated.
- Quenty 7y ago
  Ham radio’s community is open. Part of the joy is being able to communicate with anyone on a Ham radio. Encrypting Ham radio doesn’t make any sense. While I agree with your overall sentiment of privacy, I think Ham radio shouldn’t be encrypted. When we talk about national security and Ham radio “secure” communication is not what we mean as a risk factor.
  - geofft 7y ago
    And yet we're all talking on this community over encrypted connections.
    - wil421 7y ago
      Do you broadcast your HAM radio password unencrypted before you login to HAM? Do you broadcast your bank account information and SSN over HAM? No you don’t on HAM, but if you use HTTP you do.
      - vvanders 7y ago
        No, because you don't do any commercial transmissions on ham radio. If you want to do that grab some Ubitqui gear or other Part 15 device and go crazy. Also you do transmit callsigns which anyone can look up and find out who you are + where you live. There's no expectation of privacy and never has been on the bands.
      - kawfey 7y ago
        This is a pet peeve of mine, but it's ham radio, not HAM. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymology_of_ham_radio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymology_of_ham_radio
    - VLM 7y ago
      The internet bucket is too big, you got free for all http or secure (ish) https providing authentication, authorization, accounting, and encrypted data transfer. I'd argue that HN doesn't require encrypted data transfer at all, and encrypted data transfer is illegal on ham radio freqs anyway. The other three AAA words are what HN requires as a multi user BBS like service, and are legal under ham radio rules, or at most only need to be bent slightly into being legal. I was motivated enough to look up the Apache webserver docs to force a https ciper; apparently "SSLCipherSuite" lets you force a specific openSSL cipher name; then I checked openSSL docs and for better or worse "cleartext" is not an allowable cipher for openSSL. Via some code changes in browser and server you could technically implement something like HTTPS that would work legally over ham radio. Although this is a slight simplification, conceptually there's nothing wrong with the idea of accessing HN while using a cipher of cleartext. I really want to know that I'm not getting MITM'd when I read and post, and I want that CA proof that I'm talking to the genuine CA approved HN server. I really don't care if the general public can read the contents of this post so cleartext would be fine. Logging in by typing my password would be an obvious corner case to handle.
geofft 7y ago
And it would be unthinkable to say that hobbyists learning Linux cannot use SSH or HTTPS. Why is ham radio different? ("Limited spectrum" is definitely a potential distinction. "National security," I think, makes no sense in either case—it was tried for Internet hobbyists and failed.)
- Karunamon 7y ago
  Because without that no-encryption rule, the ham bands would quickly turn into a commercialized free-for-all. The required openness prevents that particular class of abuse without ambiguity.
  - geofft 7y ago
    I'm a little puzzled by this argument, honestly. It's clearly an illegal commercialized free-for-all, so - how would a viable white market develop? It would be patently obvious that the handy communications devices you're buying are using ham frequencies. - on the grey/black market, why do we think that banning encryption is sufficient to dissuade illegal use but allowing it and banning commercial use would not be? It's already the case that FCC enforcement is very weak and there are a ton of newfangled digital modes. You could get by for a very long time sending encrypted transmissions on ham bands without anyone being able to stop you.
    - kevin_thibedeau 7y ago
      You can't prove that anyone is sending encrypted data vs random numbers. The latter is legal with current packet radio protocols.
      - sseagull 7y ago
        I don't believe random numbers (certainly long strings of random numbers) would be an authorized transmission. They would serve no purpose allowed by Part 97.
    - jdietrich 7y ago
criddell 7y ago
> Amateur Radio is a lot like STEM. One of it's goals is to encourage people to get "into" thinking and planning for the situations where amateur radio is a useful public service. A few years ago I tried to convince my kids that it would be fun for all of us to get our license for amateur radio. They asked what we could do with it and I told them we could talk to people anywhere in the world! They looked at me like I was nuts because they do that all day everyday online.
- nvahalik 7y ago
  Yeah. My son isn't quite old enough yet, but I'm hoping to convince him that an HT will be a better investment than a mobile phone (since he could get one way earlier, anyway.)
- akhilcacharya 7y ago
  The pitch that sold me (well, would have sold me if I had the sway to buy a radio when I was a kid..) was the fact that astronauts on the ISS answered on their frequency circa 2007 more often than they do on the internet.
- unoti 7y ago
  >They asked what we could do with it and I told them we could talk to people anywhere in the world! They looked at me like I was nuts because they do that all day everyday online It’s more like why you would want to learn to do any of a bunch of other things that technology or other people can do for you. Why would you want to learn to cook, go camping, learn to fly a plane, or drive a car? Its a lot like camping: understanding the basics of life and survival, and how our ancestors did it.
- amatecha 7y ago
  I'd say "We can receive images from and talk with astronauts on the International Space Station... No big deal, right?" They do this regularly and actually give out certificates for successfully receiving the SSTV images they broadcast, which is super cool IMO. [0] Regarding cell phones, just yesterday there was a countrywide cellular service outage[1] in Canada, where amateur radio would have continued working flawlessly. Further, if you are doing some backcountry camping or offroading, good luck getting on the cellular network. [0] http://ariss-sstv.blogspot.com/ http://ariss-sstv.blogspot.com/ [1] https://globalnews.ca/news/5469880/rogers-wireless-outage/ https://globalnews.ca/news/5469880/rogers-wireless-outage/

msla 7y ago

> Amateur Radio is a lot like STEM. One of it's goals is to encourage people to get "into" thinking and planning for the situations where amateur radio is a useful public service. The hobby portion exists to give people the freedom to experiment and test their skills. And these days, an important skill is security, and security thinking, which requires modern encryption. The government currently demands to eavesdrop on all ham communications. Well, of course it does. It's a government. Standing up to such nonsense is a skill in itself, and one which should be cultivated.

Quenty 7y ago
Ham radio’s community is open. Part of the joy is being able to communicate with anyone on a Ham radio. Encrypting Ham radio doesn’t make any sense. While I agree with your overall sentiment of privacy, I think Ham radio shouldn’t be encrypted. When we talk about national security and Ham radio “secure” communication is not what we mean as a risk factor.
- geofft 7y ago
  And yet we're all talking on this community over encrypted connections.
  - wil421 7y ago
    Do you broadcast your HAM radio password unencrypted before you login to HAM? Do you broadcast your bank account information and SSN over HAM? No you don’t on HAM, but if you use HTTP you do.
    - vvanders 7y ago
      No, because you don't do any commercial transmissions on ham radio. If you want to do that grab some Ubitqui gear or other Part 15 device and go crazy. Also you do transmit callsigns which anyone can look up and find out who you are + where you live. There's no expectation of privacy and never has been on the bands.
    - kawfey 7y ago
      This is a pet peeve of mine, but it's ham radio, not HAM. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymology_of_ham_radio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymology_of_ham_radio
  - VLM 7y ago
    The internet bucket is too big, you got free for all http or secure (ish) https providing authentication, authorization, accounting, and encrypted data transfer. I'd argue that HN doesn't require encrypted data transfer at all, and encrypted data transfer is illegal on ham radio freqs anyway. The other three AAA words are what HN requires as a multi user BBS like service, and are legal under ham radio rules, or at most only need to be bent slightly into being legal. I was motivated enough to look up the Apache webserver docs to force a https ciper; apparently "SSLCipherSuite" lets you force a specific openSSL cipher name; then I checked openSSL docs and for better or worse "cleartext" is not an allowable cipher for openSSL. Via some code changes in browser and server you could technically implement something like HTTPS that would work legally over ham radio. Although this is a slight simplification, conceptually there's nothing wrong with the idea of accessing HN while using a cipher of cleartext. I really want to know that I'm not getting MITM'd when I read and post, and I want that CA proof that I'm talking to the genuine CA approved HN server. I really don't care if the general public can read the contents of this post so cleartext would be fine. Logging in by typing my password would be an obvious corner case to handle.

geofft 7y ago

And it would be unthinkable to say that hobbyists learning Linux cannot use SSH or HTTPS. Why is ham radio different? ("Limited spectrum" is definitely a potential distinction. "National security," I think, makes no sense in either case—it was tried for Internet hobbyists and failed.)

Karunamon 7y ago
Because without that no-encryption rule, the ham bands would quickly turn into a commercialized free-for-all. The required openness prevents that particular class of abuse without ambiguity.
- geofft 7y ago
  I'm a little puzzled by this argument, honestly. It's clearly an illegal commercialized free-for-all, so - how would a viable white market develop? It would be patently obvious that the handy communications devices you're buying are using ham frequencies. - on the grey/black market, why do we think that banning encryption is sufficient to dissuade illegal use but allowing it and banning commercial use would not be? It's already the case that FCC enforcement is very weak and there are a ton of newfangled digital modes. You could get by for a very long time sending encrypted transmissions on ham bands without anyone being able to stop you.
  - kevin_thibedeau 7y ago
    You can't prove that anyone is sending encrypted data vs random numbers. The latter is legal with current packet radio protocols.
    - sseagull 7y ago
      I don't believe random numbers (certainly long strings of random numbers) would be an authorized transmission. They would serve no purpose allowed by Part 97.
  - jdietrich 7y ago

criddell 7y ago

> Amateur Radio is a lot like STEM. One of it's goals is to encourage people to get "into" thinking and planning for the situations where amateur radio is a useful public service. A few years ago I tried to convince my kids that it would be fun for all of us to get our license for amateur radio. They asked what we could do with it and I told them we could talk to people anywhere in the world! They looked at me like I was nuts because they do that all day everyday online.

nvahalik 7y ago
Yeah. My son isn't quite old enough yet, but I'm hoping to convince him that an HT will be a better investment than a mobile phone (since he could get one way earlier, anyway.)
akhilcacharya 7y ago
The pitch that sold me (well, would have sold me if I had the sway to buy a radio when I was a kid..) was the fact that astronauts on the ISS answered on their frequency circa 2007 more often than they do on the internet.
unoti 7y ago
>They asked what we could do with it and I told them we could talk to people anywhere in the world! They looked at me like I was nuts because they do that all day everyday online It’s more like why you would want to learn to do any of a bunch of other things that technology or other people can do for you. Why would you want to learn to cook, go camping, learn to fly a plane, or drive a car? Its a lot like camping: understanding the basics of life and survival, and how our ancestors did it.
amatecha 7y ago
I'd say "We can receive images from and talk with astronauts on the International Space Station... No big deal, right?" They do this regularly and actually give out certificates for successfully receiving the SSTV images they broadcast, which is super cool IMO. [0] Regarding cell phones, just yesterday there was a countrywide cellular service outage[1] in Canada, where amateur radio would have continued working flawlessly. Further, if you are doing some backcountry camping or offroading, good luck getting on the cellular network. [0] http://ariss-sstv.blogspot.com/ http://ariss-sstv.blogspot.com/ [1] https://globalnews.ca/news/5469880/rogers-wireless-outage/ https://globalnews.ca/news/5469880/rogers-wireless-outage/