6 ms·

I completely agree. Many times when someone asks me to change something without pointing to a previously agreed-on coding standard that all team members approv

I completely agree. Many times when someone asks me to change something without pointing to a previously agreed-on coding standard that all team members approved before, I just call it bullshit and let the PR sit there indefinitely while I get to my next task. If someone is interested why the PR is not released yet, I always point out that some people wanted to have changes but they were lazy to make those changes themselves even though the code base was accessible for the criticizer too. And I never fail to mention that I am already working on something else so going back is just the waste of my time and my time is as precious as the criticizer's. Of course I am not this arrogant when there are agreed-on coding standards and the reviewer points out mistakes based on those standards (but that almost never happens). I am more than happy to make changes in that case. So to sum it up: pull requests have become the prefect tool for workplace bullying.

xpe 7y ago
First, you have the choice to be arrogant or not arrogant. I would suggest that you’ll be more successful if you choose the latter. Second, not all team norms and guidelines can practically be discussed in advance. It is much better for a reviewer to give a sincere and detailed review than to leave out useful feedback.
- fogetti 7y ago
  Well I can't even imagine a more arrogant thing than criticizing someone's work without the right to do so. Just because people have a keyboard it doesn't mean that they have all the fundamental skills and experience to give feedback on anything. > not all team norms and guidelines can practically be discussed in advance I would suggest that you’ll be more successful if you grow a spine and try to tackle the fundamental issue first: having norms and guidelines. If that's your attitude to programming your professionalism is very low. You ignored the most important thing in a successful development team's life and now you are suggesting other people how to become more successful? Ridiculous.
  - xpe 7y ago
    I was trying to constructively and civilly offer feedback. You did not reply in the same spirit. Your comment was rude; many people would ignore it. In the past (and occasionally even recently) I’ve been rude, arrogant, or not valued people properly. It didn’t get me very far. This is the reason I’m writing despite your tone —- because I want to help you see more broadly about what is important. If you disagree, fine, but open your mind to the possibility that you should revisit this topic later with more experience and perspective. Defensive, aggressive, and ad-hominem attacks are not useful and simply make you look worse. Being right is not sufficient. Life and work are bigger than that. If not me (someone you don’t know), I sincerely hope you ask several people you trust for feedback on this topic. I think you might be surprised by what you can learn. Your comment also makes unwarranted and illogical assumptions. For example, I never said that having norms and guidelines is a bad thing. I only said that there will inevitably be areas that are not covered in advance. Most importantly, you have a choice in how you act. Aspire to be both correct and kind. This will get you farther. Good luck.
    - fogetti 7y ago
      Look worse than who? A random no name person on the internet? Cry me a river. Just so you know I manage 6 people right now and we are doing quite well. The sort of yours would not be welcome for sure. People who cannot think out of the box will always be boring and predictable. If you cannot imagine a world where code reviews don't help at all it shows your lack of experience. Work 10 more years in 8 different companies as I did and you will quickly learn that what you say has no grounding. Being correct and kind is cool. But it won't get you anywhere.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - xpe 7y ago
        Your comments make you look worse than a better version of your current self. You continue to make unwarranted assumptions and snide remarks.
gwbas1c 7y ago
That is an easy way to get fired.
- fogetti 7y ago
  There is no such thing as at-will employment in most countries outside the US. No-one can fire anyone when the work is done and just because a bunch of pussies are criticizing your work.
sfink 7y ago
My interpretation of your comment is that if someone applies their experience and expertise during a code review, and comes up with issues or suggestions that are not part of a written standard, then you will assume that your evaluation (maybe of the merits of the case, or perhaps just the importance) is more worthwhile/accurate than theirs. Also, your preferred approach is to passive aggressively let the PR sit until external pressures build enough to force it through. Do I have that right? If so, I personally find that to be a deeply problematic approach. Though I can imagine situations where it would be defensible and even optimal -- but those situations would involve working with idiots and/or control freaks. In which case my preferred approach would be to find a different place to work.
- fogetti 7y ago
  Well you got it right. I was surrounded by control freaks. Today I am the happiest man on earth because I don't have to put up with the idiocy of code reviews anymore.
  - xpe 7y ago
    I’m curious: what sorts of things does your team do instead of code reviews? Does your team have norms around code quality? How are these maintained? What happens when a commit needs improvement? Does the team discuss it somehow? Does someone fix it with a follow up commit?
    - fogetti 7y ago
      Pair programming, live coding sessions and study sessions. When we start implementing something we define the definition of done and the acceptance criteria. When the code passes linting and meets the acceptance criteria it is accepted. If it doesn't then it's clear why not. There is no such thing as a commit needs improvement. It either passes or fails based on the above.

xpe 7y ago

First, you have the choice to be arrogant or not arrogant. I would suggest that you’ll be more successful if you choose the latter. Second, not all team norms and guidelines can practically be discussed in advance. It is much better for a reviewer to give a sincere and detailed review than to leave out useful feedback.

fogetti 7y ago
Well I can't even imagine a more arrogant thing than criticizing someone's work without the right to do so. Just because people have a keyboard it doesn't mean that they have all the fundamental skills and experience to give feedback on anything. > not all team norms and guidelines can practically be discussed in advance I would suggest that you’ll be more successful if you grow a spine and try to tackle the fundamental issue first: having norms and guidelines. If that's your attitude to programming your professionalism is very low. You ignored the most important thing in a successful development team's life and now you are suggesting other people how to become more successful? Ridiculous.
- xpe 7y ago
  I was trying to constructively and civilly offer feedback. You did not reply in the same spirit. Your comment was rude; many people would ignore it. In the past (and occasionally even recently) I’ve been rude, arrogant, or not valued people properly. It didn’t get me very far. This is the reason I’m writing despite your tone —- because I want to help you see more broadly about what is important. If you disagree, fine, but open your mind to the possibility that you should revisit this topic later with more experience and perspective. Defensive, aggressive, and ad-hominem attacks are not useful and simply make you look worse. Being right is not sufficient. Life and work are bigger than that. If not me (someone you don’t know), I sincerely hope you ask several people you trust for feedback on this topic. I think you might be surprised by what you can learn. Your comment also makes unwarranted and illogical assumptions. For example, I never said that having norms and guidelines is a bad thing. I only said that there will inevitably be areas that are not covered in advance. Most importantly, you have a choice in how you act. Aspire to be both correct and kind. This will get you farther. Good luck.
  - fogetti 7y ago
    Look worse than who? A random no name person on the internet? Cry me a river. Just so you know I manage 6 people right now and we are doing quite well. The sort of yours would not be welcome for sure. People who cannot think out of the box will always be boring and predictable. If you cannot imagine a world where code reviews don't help at all it shows your lack of experience. Work 10 more years in 8 different companies as I did and you will quickly learn that what you say has no grounding. Being correct and kind is cool. But it won't get you anywhere.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - xpe 7y ago
      Your comments make you look worse than a better version of your current self. You continue to make unwarranted assumptions and snide remarks.

gwbas1c 7y ago

That is an easy way to get fired.

fogetti 7y ago
There is no such thing as at-will employment in most countries outside the US. No-one can fire anyone when the work is done and just because a bunch of pussies are criticizing your work.

sfink 7y ago

My interpretation of your comment is that if someone applies their experience and expertise during a code review, and comes up with issues or suggestions that are not part of a written standard, then you will assume that your evaluation (maybe of the merits of the case, or perhaps just the importance) is more worthwhile/accurate than theirs. Also, your preferred approach is to passive aggressively let the PR sit until external pressures build enough to force it through. Do I have that right? If so, I personally find that to be a deeply problematic approach. Though I can imagine situations where it would be defensible and even optimal -- but those situations would involve working with idiots and/or control freaks. In which case my preferred approach would be to find a different place to work.

fogetti 7y ago
Well you got it right. I was surrounded by control freaks. Today I am the happiest man on earth because I don't have to put up with the idiocy of code reviews anymore.
- xpe 7y ago
  I’m curious: what sorts of things does your team do instead of code reviews? Does your team have norms around code quality? How are these maintained? What happens when a commit needs improvement? Does the team discuss it somehow? Does someone fix it with a follow up commit?
  - fogetti 7y ago
    Pair programming, live coding sessions and study sessions. When we start implementing something we define the definition of done and the acceptance criteria. When the code passes linting and meets the acceptance criteria it is accepted. If it doesn't then it's clear why not. There is no such thing as a commit needs improvement. It either passes or fails based on the above.