8 ms·

The article already says what my thoughts on this are (And the thoughts of the people running HAM Radio licensing exams), Ham Radio is a privilege that is grant

The article already says what my thoughts on this are (And the thoughts of the people running HAM Radio licensing exams), Ham Radio is a privilege that is granted by the FCC. The specific issue here seems to be that a service that allows HAM communication digitally may be skirting FCC law regulating the use of Amateur wavelengths, which is an issue separate from "the spirit of open communication"., I don't think the "spirit" of amateur radio as everything default open jives with the world we live in today. Interference is one thing and should be dealth with, but anyone is still able to broadcast QRLs if they want to even in a world of encrypted messages

jgrahamc 7y ago
I'd support encrypted traffic if it was specifically restricted to certain bands in the bandplan. I don't think it should be allowed generally because part of the joy of amateur radio is the fact that other people's messages can be listened to and learnt from.
- NikolaeVarius 7y ago
  I think the same people who are protesting in the article would object to that. Because bar the FCC releasing more spectrum to Amateur radio (which probably won't happen) it would mean removing spectrum from "open" amateur bands.
  - psim1 7y ago
    Where are the amateur bands so crowded that this is a serious concern?
    - VLM 7y ago
      The lower HF bands when they're open worldwide WRT sunspots etc. Above 14 Mhz its not an issue.
    - kayfox 7y ago
      Southern California has a dearth of available repeater pairs because of the massive amount of repeaters in use.
      - psim1 7y ago
        I might be oversimplifying, but isn't this the perfect argument for certain digital voice modes? DMR for example uses TDM to put two voice channels in a 12.5 KHz band.
II2II 7y ago
The spirit of "everything open" does not jive with the modern world and may be an issue with some emergency communications, yet it has a role with amateur radio. The important things to realize are that amateur radio has a multitude of roles and those roles are not unique to the service. For example: amateur radio is not intended for emergency communications, you have things like aviation and nautical bands for that, yet emergency communications are central to amateur radio since the bands are available when all else fails. Likewise for experimentation, you can frequently work below a certain power levels or obtain a license to develop new technologies. An amateur license offers more leeway and less bureaucracy to hobbiests, arguably cutting down on interference to critical services. The list goes on. The problem is creating a self-regulating environment. This is difficult to do when communications are "effectively encrypted", which I take to mean that the mode is not publicly documented, it is encrypted, or it is otherwise obfuscated. At best, this encourages use that violates radio regulations. A more cynical interpretation is that it's a prelude to taking over amateur bands.
- jascii 7y ago
  Amateur radio is defined as a "civil emergency service" under FCC 47 CFR 97.407. Around here at least, Amateur radio groups provide a vital role in the coordination of Search and Rescue operations by setting up communication networks in backcountry areas under the direct supervision of the local sherifs office. So yes, amateur radio is (among other things) intended for emergency communications.
jdietrich 7y ago
If encryption is permitted on amateur bands, huge chunks of the rulebook become completely unenforceable. Use-cases that would require encryption are largely incompatible with the purposes of amateur radio stated in Title 47 Part 97. If the amateur bands become filled with encrypted traffic, I cannot imagine any scenario in which they would not become a free-for-all.
- logfromblammo 7y ago
  Police work is only easy in a police state. Ham operators have to decide whether they want to enforce the rules more easily, or whether they want their protected slices of bandwidth to remain relevant in the 21st century. Constellations of LEO communications satellites already exist, and they are becoming cheaper and more accessible. When a message can be sent from anywhere on Earth to anywhere else on Earth using antennas smaller than a thumbnail, with verification of receipt, independently of local weather, while a billion other people are doing exactly the same thing at exactly the same time, I will strongly wonder why people are still using a channel that could otherwise carry trillions of those messages to try to unreliably bounce Morse code along the terminator from Kansas to Kamchatka. Opening up a free-for-all in the amateur bands might just produce outsider ideas for interference resolution and deconfliction that are not encumbered by telecoms patents. I want the amateur bands to be a free-for-all. And also free, for all.
  - jdietrich 7y ago
    >I want the amateur bands to be a free-for-all. And also free, for all. Then they aren't the amateur bands any more - they're ISM bands with really high power limits. Interference is a thing. Modern technology doesn't magic away the problem of interference, it just gives us some tools for mitigating it in some circumstances. The amateur bands give you the right to use high power levels on big blocks of spectrum, but those rights come with responsibilities. You might prefer anarchy, but the FCC doesn't and neither do the majority of spectrum users.
    - logfromblammo 7y ago
falcolas 7y ago
My knowledge is a decade or so out of date, but encrypted transmissions have been allowed in the past, so long as the key for decrypting the payloads was available on request (much like how GNU says source code must be available). For example, you can transmit video over amateur bands, even though the signal could be considered to be encrypted if you don't have the standard for decoding the signal.
- kyberias 7y ago
  Let's not confuse encryption with encoding.
  - geofft 7y ago
    But encoding is relevant here too. If people cannot make sense of the messages, whether or not they're cryptographically secure, the messages aren't fulfilling the pedagogical purpose of the amateur service.
    - steve19 7y ago
      The average English speaking American probably won't be able to make sense of someone speaking Haitian, nobody says everyone must be able to understand you. But you can record the Hiatian speakers message and get it translated. With sufficient encryption, recorded messages cannot ever be decoded unless the key was broadcast, which it never would be.
      - falcolas 7y ago
        > But you can record the Hiatian speakers message and get it translated. However, this exact form of encoding was used as a form of encryption while the US was at war; the Navajo Code Talkers. Somewhat off topic, of course, but a great example of how encryption and encoding can have identical end results.
      - Retra 7y ago
        You can record an encrypted message and get it decrypted by anyone who demonstrates knowledge of the key. The process is identical to finding someone who demonstrates knowledge of Haitian. Encryption is nothing more than an uncommon encoding.
howard941 7y ago
ISTM really important to crack down on the commercial uses otherwise the commercial users will justifiably lay claim to our bands. When that happens we won't have a place to be QRL broadcasting QRLs
mmaunder 7y ago
This is about Pactor modems not being readable by other hams because the protocol is proprietary from version 2 upwards, and therefore unreadable. Also, the amateur bands can't be used for commercial traffic, and yet they are. The article may not explain this well, but that's the core of the issue. Both sides muddy it up a bit. This battle has been raging since the 90s. I posted a longer description in another thread here.

jgrahamc 7y ago

I'd support encrypted traffic if it was specifically restricted to certain bands in the bandplan. I don't think it should be allowed generally because part of the joy of amateur radio is the fact that other people's messages can be listened to and learnt from.

NikolaeVarius 7y ago
I think the same people who are protesting in the article would object to that. Because bar the FCC releasing more spectrum to Amateur radio (which probably won't happen) it would mean removing spectrum from "open" amateur bands.
- psim1 7y ago
  Where are the amateur bands so crowded that this is a serious concern?
  - VLM 7y ago
    The lower HF bands when they're open worldwide WRT sunspots etc. Above 14 Mhz its not an issue.
  - kayfox 7y ago
    Southern California has a dearth of available repeater pairs because of the massive amount of repeaters in use.
    - psim1 7y ago
      I might be oversimplifying, but isn't this the perfect argument for certain digital voice modes? DMR for example uses TDM to put two voice channels in a 12.5 KHz band.

II2II 7y ago

The spirit of "everything open" does not jive with the modern world and may be an issue with some emergency communications, yet it has a role with amateur radio. The important things to realize are that amateur radio has a multitude of roles and those roles are not unique to the service. For example: amateur radio is not intended for emergency communications, you have things like aviation and nautical bands for that, yet emergency communications are central to amateur radio since the bands are available when all else fails. Likewise for experimentation, you can frequently work below a certain power levels or obtain a license to develop new technologies. An amateur license offers more leeway and less bureaucracy to hobbiests, arguably cutting down on interference to critical services. The list goes on. The problem is creating a self-regulating environment. This is difficult to do when communications are "effectively encrypted", which I take to mean that the mode is not publicly documented, it is encrypted, or it is otherwise obfuscated. At best, this encourages use that violates radio regulations. A more cynical interpretation is that it's a prelude to taking over amateur bands.

jascii 7y ago
Amateur radio is defined as a "civil emergency service" under FCC 47 CFR 97.407. Around here at least, Amateur radio groups provide a vital role in the coordination of Search and Rescue operations by setting up communication networks in backcountry areas under the direct supervision of the local sherifs office. So yes, amateur radio is (among other things) intended for emergency communications.

jdietrich 7y ago

If encryption is permitted on amateur bands, huge chunks of the rulebook become completely unenforceable. Use-cases that would require encryption are largely incompatible with the purposes of amateur radio stated in Title 47 Part 97. If the amateur bands become filled with encrypted traffic, I cannot imagine any scenario in which they would not become a free-for-all.

logfromblammo 7y ago
Police work is only easy in a police state. Ham operators have to decide whether they want to enforce the rules more easily, or whether they want their protected slices of bandwidth to remain relevant in the 21st century. Constellations of LEO communications satellites already exist, and they are becoming cheaper and more accessible. When a message can be sent from anywhere on Earth to anywhere else on Earth using antennas smaller than a thumbnail, with verification of receipt, independently of local weather, while a billion other people are doing exactly the same thing at exactly the same time, I will strongly wonder why people are still using a channel that could otherwise carry trillions of those messages to try to unreliably bounce Morse code along the terminator from Kansas to Kamchatka. Opening up a free-for-all in the amateur bands might just produce outsider ideas for interference resolution and deconfliction that are not encumbered by telecoms patents. I want the amateur bands to be a free-for-all. And also free, for all.
- jdietrich 7y ago
  >I want the amateur bands to be a free-for-all. And also free, for all. Then they aren't the amateur bands any more - they're ISM bands with really high power limits. Interference is a thing. Modern technology doesn't magic away the problem of interference, it just gives us some tools for mitigating it in some circumstances. The amateur bands give you the right to use high power levels on big blocks of spectrum, but those rights come with responsibilities. You might prefer anarchy, but the FCC doesn't and neither do the majority of spectrum users.
  - logfromblammo 7y ago

falcolas 7y ago

My knowledge is a decade or so out of date, but encrypted transmissions have been allowed in the past, so long as the key for decrypting the payloads was available on request (much like how GNU says source code must be available). For example, you can transmit video over amateur bands, even though the signal could be considered to be encrypted if you don't have the standard for decoding the signal.

kyberias 7y ago
Let's not confuse encryption with encoding.
- geofft 7y ago
  But encoding is relevant here too. If people cannot make sense of the messages, whether or not they're cryptographically secure, the messages aren't fulfilling the pedagogical purpose of the amateur service.
  - steve19 7y ago
    The average English speaking American probably won't be able to make sense of someone speaking Haitian, nobody says everyone must be able to understand you. But you can record the Hiatian speakers message and get it translated. With sufficient encryption, recorded messages cannot ever be decoded unless the key was broadcast, which it never would be.
    - falcolas 7y ago
      > But you can record the Hiatian speakers message and get it translated. However, this exact form of encoding was used as a form of encryption while the US was at war; the Navajo Code Talkers. Somewhat off topic, of course, but a great example of how encryption and encoding can have identical end results.
    - Retra 7y ago
      You can record an encrypted message and get it decrypted by anyone who demonstrates knowledge of the key. The process is identical to finding someone who demonstrates knowledge of Haitian. Encryption is nothing more than an uncommon encoding.

howard941 7y ago

ISTM really important to crack down on the commercial uses otherwise the commercial users will justifiably lay claim to our bands. When that happens we won't have a place to be QRL broadcasting QRLs

mmaunder 7y ago

This is about Pactor modems not being readable by other hams because the protocol is proprietary from version 2 upwards, and therefore unreadable. Also, the amateur bands can't be used for commercial traffic, and yet they are. The article may not explain this well, but that's the core of the issue. Both sides muddy it up a bit. This battle has been raging since the 90s. I posted a longer description in another thread here.