7 ms·

I think it's unfair to say he is a racist when the point he makes in the first post is that people are unwilling to talk about these important issues of IQ beca

I think it's unfair to say he is a racist when the point he makes in the first post is that people are unwilling to talk about these important issues of IQ because they will be labelled racists: >For anyone who believe that racial equality is an important goal, this is absolutely horrible news. Which is why a lot of well-intentioned people refuse to look at these facts, and will attempt to shout down anyone who speaks them in public. There have been several occasions on which leading psychometricians have had their books canceled or withdrawn by publishers who found the actual scientific evidence about IQ so appalling that they refused to print it. >Unfortunately, denial of the facts doesn’t make them go away. Far from being meaningless, IQ may be the single most important statistic about human beings, in the precise sense that differences in g probably drive individual and social outcomes more than any other single measurable attribute of human beings. And here he makes the main point: >And that is actually a valuable hint about how to get beyond racism. A black man with an IQ of 85 and a white man with an IQ of 85 are about equally likely to have the character traits of poor impulse control and violent behavior associated with criminality — and both are far more likely to have them than a white or black man with an IQ of 110. If we could stop being afraid of IQ and face up to it, that would give us an objective standard that would banish racism per se. IQ matters so much more than skin color that if we started paying serious attention to the former, we might be able to stop paying attention to the latter. I don't see how you could honestly read all this as racist. I'd imagine similar reasoning goes for the rest of your quotes.

codezero 7y ago
A reason people consider this racist thinking is that people of color in the US have been aggressively denied the same education and housing opportunities that whites have. So there are a lot of indirect contributions that should make you question any adult statistics on IQ and crime. Also, crime statistics are skewed also by a racial bias towards people of color. Many laws are written specifically to target the poor and black communities disproportionately. For example, gun laws, and things like powder cocaine vs crack cocaine. Combining that with the questionable value of IQ in the first place, making these kinds of arguments without considering the whole picture are setting themselves up for appearing racist.
- celticmusic 7y ago
  I think it's a matter of perspective. If you believe IQ is completely genetic, then a statement that more blacks have a lower IQ can be seen as racist against blacks. But if you believe IQ is malleable (fixable to some extent), then the statement that more blacks have a lower IQ can be seen as a lambasting of the system, and empathy towards the black community. Personally I think ESR's goal is the latter, a declaration that the black community has an IQ problem, and we need to think about how to fix that rather than dismissing them.
  - codezero 7y ago
    If you want to make this argument, first prove IQ measures genetic intelligence. Is that even a thing? Can someone with no education but genetic IQ be shown to be more intelligent than someone with a higher education and lower genetic IQ? This sounds absurdly easy to refute. This test would also need to apply across cultures and communities. Maybe you’re just playing devil’s advocate, but I can’t understand how anyone can make these arguments without serious scientific evidence. We shouldn’t be making statements on entire groups of people with our beliefs. Also, people of color are genetically identical to those not of color.
    - celticmusic 7y ago
      what the hell are you on about? I made no argument, simply explained why some people think pointing out that IQ for blacks is lower is a racist statement and others do not think it's a racist statement.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - DonHopkins 7y ago
        Hey, you're the who's pathetically attempting to white-wash Eric Raymond's long well documented track record of racism by making the ludicrous claim that he has "empathy towards the black community". "The average IQ of the Haitian population is 67... Haiti is, quite literally, a country full of violent idiots." -Eric S Raymond "... The minimum level of training required to make someone effective as a self defense shooter is not very high... unfortunately, this doesn't cover the BLM crowd, which would have an average IQ of 85 if it's statistically representative of American blacks as a whole. I've never tried to train anyone that dim and wouldn't want to." -Eric S Raymond https://twitter.com/tqbf/status/780839196231630848 https://twitter.com/tqbf/status/780839196231630848 Empathy, riiiiight. How about "contempt".
celticmusic 7y ago
I'm not up to speed on ESR, but I didn't get a racist vibe from the initial quotes, and your response goes further in convincing me he isn't racist, just forthright. Which is an admirable trait. And on that note, I personally think people like ESR are more likely to help fix the problem than those screaming that he's a racist. How do you fix reality if you refuse to accept reality? I don't know, and neither do they.
- DonHopkins 7y ago
  "And for any agents or proxy of the regime interested in asking me questions face to face, I’ve got some bullets slathered in pork fat to make you feel extra special welcome." -Eric S Raymond
  - celticmusic 7y ago
    I have no idea what this quote is supposed to mean. Is bullets slathered in pork fat supposed to be a racial comment?
    - DonHopkins 7y ago
      Your naïve act is wearing thin. Google it. >"your response goes further in convincing me he isn't racist, just forthright. Which is an admirable trait." Don't blame other people for forcing you to tolerate intolerance and admire racism. That was 100% your decision.
      - celticmusic 7y ago
        Or some of us just don't have race at the center of our thoughts constantly. And to head it off, I'm not white, but much like I don't consider religion that important, I don't consider race that important either. I'm actually more interested in the new release of .net core than I am in a persons race or religion. Which means I don't ingest news/information sources where these are high up on the list of things talked about. I consider them personal things, much like I don't want to hear about my coworker's sex life. but hey, maybe my not actively looking for constant negativity in my life makes me a horrible human being? I'm guessing you're going to tell me it does...
DonHopkins 7y ago
Not only does Eric S Raymond believe blacks are stupid and violent, but he also virulently agrees with Russ Nelson's infamous article entitled "Blacks are Lazy", and calls people who found that objectionable "fools and thugs". (And as we all know, "thugs" is a dog-whistle for the n-word.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Russ_Nelson#Blacks_are_lazy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Russ_Nelson#Blacks_are_la... Eric S Raymond threw down the gauntlet and defended Russ Nelson's infamous "Blacks are Lazy" article by calling everyone who wanted him to resign his position as president of OSI "fools and thugs", and demanded OSI spend their precious time and resources fighting critics of racism and defending Russ Nelson's racist beliefs which ESR shares, instead of promoting open source software. http://www.eweek.com/servers/new-osi-president-steps-down http://www.eweek.com/servers/new-osi-president-steps-down >“Abetting somebody elses witch hunt is no less disgusting than starting your own.” “Personally, I wanted to fight this on principle,” Raymond said. “Russ resigned the presidency rather than get OSI into that fight, and the board quite properly respected his wishes in the matter. That sacrifice makes me angrier at the fools and thugs who pulled him down.”

codezero 7y ago

A reason people consider this racist thinking is that people of color in the US have been aggressively denied the same education and housing opportunities that whites have. So there are a lot of indirect contributions that should make you question any adult statistics on IQ and crime. Also, crime statistics are skewed also by a racial bias towards people of color. Many laws are written specifically to target the poor and black communities disproportionately. For example, gun laws, and things like powder cocaine vs crack cocaine. Combining that with the questionable value of IQ in the first place, making these kinds of arguments without considering the whole picture are setting themselves up for appearing racist.

celticmusic 7y ago
I think it's a matter of perspective. If you believe IQ is completely genetic, then a statement that more blacks have a lower IQ can be seen as racist against blacks. But if you believe IQ is malleable (fixable to some extent), then the statement that more blacks have a lower IQ can be seen as a lambasting of the system, and empathy towards the black community. Personally I think ESR's goal is the latter, a declaration that the black community has an IQ problem, and we need to think about how to fix that rather than dismissing them.
- codezero 7y ago
  If you want to make this argument, first prove IQ measures genetic intelligence. Is that even a thing? Can someone with no education but genetic IQ be shown to be more intelligent than someone with a higher education and lower genetic IQ? This sounds absurdly easy to refute. This test would also need to apply across cultures and communities. Maybe you’re just playing devil’s advocate, but I can’t understand how anyone can make these arguments without serious scientific evidence. We shouldn’t be making statements on entire groups of people with our beliefs. Also, people of color are genetically identical to those not of color.
  - celticmusic 7y ago
    what the hell are you on about? I made no argument, simply explained why some people think pointing out that IQ for blacks is lower is a racist statement and others do not think it's a racist statement.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - DonHopkins 7y ago
      Hey, you're the who's pathetically attempting to white-wash Eric Raymond's long well documented track record of racism by making the ludicrous claim that he has "empathy towards the black community". "The average IQ of the Haitian population is 67... Haiti is, quite literally, a country full of violent idiots." -Eric S Raymond "... The minimum level of training required to make someone effective as a self defense shooter is not very high... unfortunately, this doesn't cover the BLM crowd, which would have an average IQ of 85 if it's statistically representative of American blacks as a whole. I've never tried to train anyone that dim and wouldn't want to." -Eric S Raymond https://twitter.com/tqbf/status/780839196231630848 https://twitter.com/tqbf/status/780839196231630848 Empathy, riiiiight. How about "contempt".

celticmusic 7y ago

I'm not up to speed on ESR, but I didn't get a racist vibe from the initial quotes, and your response goes further in convincing me he isn't racist, just forthright. Which is an admirable trait. And on that note, I personally think people like ESR are more likely to help fix the problem than those screaming that he's a racist. How do you fix reality if you refuse to accept reality? I don't know, and neither do they.

DonHopkins 7y ago
"And for any agents or proxy of the regime interested in asking me questions face to face, I’ve got some bullets slathered in pork fat to make you feel extra special welcome." -Eric S Raymond
- celticmusic 7y ago
  I have no idea what this quote is supposed to mean. Is bullets slathered in pork fat supposed to be a racial comment?
  - DonHopkins 7y ago
    Your naïve act is wearing thin. Google it. >"your response goes further in convincing me he isn't racist, just forthright. Which is an admirable trait." Don't blame other people for forcing you to tolerate intolerance and admire racism. That was 100% your decision.
    - celticmusic 7y ago
      Or some of us just don't have race at the center of our thoughts constantly. And to head it off, I'm not white, but much like I don't consider religion that important, I don't consider race that important either. I'm actually more interested in the new release of .net core than I am in a persons race or religion. Which means I don't ingest news/information sources where these are high up on the list of things talked about. I consider them personal things, much like I don't want to hear about my coworker's sex life. but hey, maybe my not actively looking for constant negativity in my life makes me a horrible human being? I'm guessing you're going to tell me it does...

DonHopkins 7y ago

Not only does Eric S Raymond believe blacks are stupid and violent, but he also virulently agrees with Russ Nelson's infamous article entitled "Blacks are Lazy", and calls people who found that objectionable "fools and thugs". (And as we all know, "thugs" is a dog-whistle for the n-word.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Russ_Nelson#Blacks_are_lazy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Russ_Nelson#Blacks_are_la... Eric S Raymond threw down the gauntlet and defended Russ Nelson's infamous "Blacks are Lazy" article by calling everyone who wanted him to resign his position as president of OSI "fools and thugs", and demanded OSI spend their precious time and resources fighting critics of racism and defending Russ Nelson's racist beliefs which ESR shares, instead of promoting open source software. http://www.eweek.com/servers/new-osi-president-steps-down http://www.eweek.com/servers/new-osi-president-steps-down >“Abetting somebody elses witch hunt is no less disgusting than starting your own.” “Personally, I wanted to fight this on principle,” Raymond said. “Russ resigned the presidency rather than get OSI into that fight, and the board quite properly respected his wishes in the matter. That sacrifice makes me angrier at the fools and thugs who pulled him down.”