9 ms·

It's so sad this guy is still getting airtime and attention.

by jasonvorhe 7y ago

cheez 7y ago
Why?
- DonHopkins 7y ago
  Here is but one facet of many that explain why. If this isn't enough, I can quote some of his many racist tweets and blog postings for you, but they will turn your stomach. http://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/Blogs/Off-the-Beat-Bruce-Byfield-s-Blog/The-Decline-and-Fall-of-Eric-S.-Raymond http://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/Blogs/Off-the-Beat-Bruc... >The Decline and Fall of Eric S. Raymond >Around the start of the millennium, Eric S. Raymond was one of the philosophical leaders of open source. His essay and book, The Cathedral and the Bazaar was obligatory reading for executives trying to understand open source. Now, after lying low for over a decade, Raymond is getting attention again, this time for two blog entries in which he rants about how so-called Social Justice Warriors (SJWs) threaten open source. >[...] Raymond's call to defend open source from SJWs is as deceptive as anything he attributes to his enemies. Free and open source software is too widespread to need defending, and his attempt to create an issue does not map well on to actual events. For those who remember his earlier contributions to open source, his recent comments make for a disappointing epilogue.
  - cheez 7y ago
    I don't see how any of what you've quoted would turn my stomach. He is entitled to his beliefs, is he not? Edit: Nevermind, I see your other posts. No need to respond here thanks.
    - DonHopkins 7y ago
      Congratulations on your iron gutted tolerance of intolerance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance As I said, he had a lot of sycophants and supporters who his thinly veiled and blatant racism resonates with, instead of disgusts. They hang out on his blog, and sometimes come out of the woodwork to drop his name, carry his water, and justify his racism, whenever they notice discussions like this. Namedropping "ESR" http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=5266 http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=5266 (read in a smarmy voice) "2. Do drop my name if by doing so you can achieve some mission objective of which I would approve. Examples that have come up: encouraging people to design in accordance with the Unix philosophy, or settling a dispute about hacker slang, or explaining why it's important for everyone's freedom for the hacker community to hang together and not get bogged down in internal doctrinal disputes." -Eric S Raymond What makes you believe I don't think he's entitled to his beliefs? Or is that just a straw man? He's entitled to believe anything he likes, just not entitled to be tolerated for his intolerance. But if you want to do that yourself, go knock yourself out. He's also entitled to have other people openly discuss and criticize his beliefs, and drop his name after quoting his own words.
      - cheez 7y ago
        It should bother you that you are so upset about it. The color you add is indicative that you do not want me to form my own opinion. He's a guy saying stuff. You insist that it should "turn my stomach" but it doesn't. So now what? Should I be forced to acquiesce to your particular social tastes? If not, then what is your goal?
        DonHopkins 7y ago
        It must be so soothing and sanguine for you not to be upset by racism and sexism, nor to be able to recognize it. Why are you having such a hard time forming your own opinion? You shouldn't let the color of words or skin prevent you from doing that. That's certainly not my intention. That's why I'm providing you with direct irrefutable quotes. I'm just a guy saying stuff, too. It's not my fault if you choose to agree with him instead of me. Does this quote tickle your fancy, or turn your stomach? Should all sensible white women abandon the software industry? Would you like to mansplain what they should be doing instead? >"The SJW’s definition of “being a dick” is “having one”. A white male cannot be hired at google unless he physically chops it off. America is a disgusting aberration." -ceee3 "No, most of their techies are still white and male. People who meet the IQ minimum for those jobs are too rare in non-white populations other than East Asians for it to be otherwise. And most white women who meet the threshold have sensibly decided they can have better lives somewhere other than software engineering." -Eric S Raymond (I won't link to his blog, but you can easily google for his words if you want to read them in context and relish the color he adds.)
        cheez 7y ago
        And that is where your comments are a microcosm of the greater political picture: I don't have to agree with either of you. > It's not my fault if you choose to agree with him instead of me. Do I agree that white males have to chop off their penis to be hired at Google? No, but what is the average testosterone level of the males at Google vs the greater population? That would be an interesting data point.
        7y ago
abvr 7y ago
Could you elaborate on why you hold a distasteful attitude towards this person? Just curious.
- codezero 7y ago
  Have a quick read of Wiki or google and make your own conclusions. From my POV I appreciate his historical contributions but he’s been pretty aggressively against inclusion in tech. Has said a lot of misogynistic and anti-gay things and is very unapologetic about anything he’s said or done. He wants free/open source community to be like it was in the 90s again, and seems pretty anti-progress in anything that’s softer than code. That’s my 2 cents but everyone has their own interpretation.
  - DonHopkins 7y ago
    Rational Wiki has a pretty accurate article about him. But it's not up to date with all his racist tweets. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Eric_S._Raymond https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Eric_S._Raymond Although WikiQuote has some but not all of them (when quoting him be sure to put an attribution lest somebody think you're saying those words): https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Eric_S._Raymond https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Eric_S._Raymond "In the U.S., blacks are 12% of the population but commit 50% of violent crimes; can anyone honestly think this is unconnected to the fact that they average 15 points of IQ lower than the general population? That stupid people are more violent is a fact independent of skin color." -Eric S Raymond: http://esr.ibiblio.org/index.php?p=129 http://esr.ibiblio.org/index.php?p=129 "A clash of civilizations driven by the failure of Islamic/Arab culture (though I would stress the problem of the Islamic commandment to jihad more than he does). I think he [Steven den Beste] is also right to say that our long-term objective must be to break, crush and eventually destroy this culture, because we can't live on the same planet with people who both carry those memes and have access to weapons of mass destruction. They will hate us and seek to destroy us not for what we've done but for what we are." -Eric S Raymond: http://armedndangerous.blogspot.com/2002_09_15_armedndangerous_archive.html#81815163 http://armedndangerous.blogspot.com/2002_09_15_armedndangero... "When I hear the words "social responsibility", I want to reach for my gun." -Eric S Raymond When receiving an award from an organization called Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility. "Geeks Win: A survey of the oddballs who write the codes that make the 21st-century world go round". The New York Times Book Review: p. BR18. 4 November 2001. ISSN 03624331. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Standard_Serial_Number https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Standard_Serial_...
blub 7y ago
No it's not sad, that's how a healthy society is supposed to work: harmful content is being criticized and marginalized while useful contributions are accepted, even if they come from the same person. I don't know wtf is up with people these days that they want to erase other humans from public discourse because they have done something bad. People aren't black and white, history has numerous examples of those that contributed beneficial things, while at the same time being less than ideal human beings. Please feel free to explain the author's transgressions through a comment in every submission of theirs, and leave the rest of us to judge the value of the submission on its own.
- DonHopkins 7y ago
  I certainly don't want to erase ESR. Just the opposite: I want to highlight him with the indelible marker of his own words. I want to educate people about what he's said and done. I want more people to know about his long well documented track record. The earnest questions people are asking about him in this thread means that many people don't actually know about him, and I and other people who do know have every right to answer those questions, provide quotes and citations, and even first hand testimony about his character and behavior from people who have known him for decades and had in-depth discussions with him in person and online, like I have (since the early 80's, when he used to hang out at science fiction conventions also attended by RMS, who he has made his career trying to destroy). I hate to come off like I'm trying to assassinate Eric Raymond's character, but it's fair game to quote the words of someone who's made his career trying to assassinate another person's character, who's done orders of magnitude more great work than he has. At least I'm not trying to make money and fame and sell books by attacking RMS, like ESR does. ESR does an excellent job of assassinating himself with his own words. So I will quote some of the worst ones (there are so many to choose from), but I don't have the stomach to actually link directly to his web site. Lest anyone criticize me for naming and shaming: https://twitter.com/tqbf/status/719621538257903616 https://twitter.com/tqbf/status/719621538257903616 Eric Raymond: "Name them and shame them. Do not hire them unless you want your organization politically disrupted and its productivity destroyed. Um. Disrupted by them, I mean. Not me or their opponents and innocent victims; we have more respect for liberty and freedom of association than that." [retweeting "The Complete List of SJWs]

It's so sad this guy is still getting airtime and attention.

cheez 7y ago

Why?

DonHopkins 7y ago
Here is but one facet of many that explain why. If this isn't enough, I can quote some of his many racist tweets and blog postings for you, but they will turn your stomach. http://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/Blogs/Off-the-Beat-Bruce-Byfield-s-Blog/The-Decline-and-Fall-of-Eric-S.-Raymond http://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/Blogs/Off-the-Beat-Bruc... >The Decline and Fall of Eric S. Raymond >Around the start of the millennium, Eric S. Raymond was one of the philosophical leaders of open source. His essay and book, The Cathedral and the Bazaar was obligatory reading for executives trying to understand open source. Now, after lying low for over a decade, Raymond is getting attention again, this time for two blog entries in which he rants about how so-called Social Justice Warriors (SJWs) threaten open source. >[...] Raymond's call to defend open source from SJWs is as deceptive as anything he attributes to his enemies. Free and open source software is too widespread to need defending, and his attempt to create an issue does not map well on to actual events. For those who remember his earlier contributions to open source, his recent comments make for a disappointing epilogue.
- cheez 7y ago
  I don't see how any of what you've quoted would turn my stomach. He is entitled to his beliefs, is he not? Edit: Nevermind, I see your other posts. No need to respond here thanks.
  - DonHopkins 7y ago
    Congratulations on your iron gutted tolerance of intolerance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance As I said, he had a lot of sycophants and supporters who his thinly veiled and blatant racism resonates with, instead of disgusts. They hang out on his blog, and sometimes come out of the woodwork to drop his name, carry his water, and justify his racism, whenever they notice discussions like this. Namedropping "ESR" http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=5266 http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=5266 (read in a smarmy voice) "2. Do drop my name if by doing so you can achieve some mission objective of which I would approve. Examples that have come up: encouraging people to design in accordance with the Unix philosophy, or settling a dispute about hacker slang, or explaining why it's important for everyone's freedom for the hacker community to hang together and not get bogged down in internal doctrinal disputes." -Eric S Raymond What makes you believe I don't think he's entitled to his beliefs? Or is that just a straw man? He's entitled to believe anything he likes, just not entitled to be tolerated for his intolerance. But if you want to do that yourself, go knock yourself out. He's also entitled to have other people openly discuss and criticize his beliefs, and drop his name after quoting his own words.
    - cheez 7y ago
      It should bother you that you are so upset about it. The color you add is indicative that you do not want me to form my own opinion. He's a guy saying stuff. You insist that it should "turn my stomach" but it doesn't. So now what? Should I be forced to acquiesce to your particular social tastes? If not, then what is your goal?
      - DonHopkins 7y ago
        It must be so soothing and sanguine for you not to be upset by racism and sexism, nor to be able to recognize it. Why are you having such a hard time forming your own opinion? You shouldn't let the color of words or skin prevent you from doing that. That's certainly not my intention. That's why I'm providing you with direct irrefutable quotes. I'm just a guy saying stuff, too. It's not my fault if you choose to agree with him instead of me. Does this quote tickle your fancy, or turn your stomach? Should all sensible white women abandon the software industry? Would you like to mansplain what they should be doing instead? >"The SJW’s definition of “being a dick” is “having one”. A white male cannot be hired at google unless he physically chops it off. America is a disgusting aberration." -ceee3 "No, most of their techies are still white and male. People who meet the IQ minimum for those jobs are too rare in non-white populations other than East Asians for it to be otherwise. And most white women who meet the threshold have sensibly decided they can have better lives somewhere other than software engineering." -Eric S Raymond (I won't link to his blog, but you can easily google for his words if you want to read them in context and relish the color he adds.)
        cheez 7y ago
        And that is where your comments are a microcosm of the greater political picture: I don't have to agree with either of you. > It's not my fault if you choose to agree with him instead of me. Do I agree that white males have to chop off their penis to be hired at Google? No, but what is the average testosterone level of the males at Google vs the greater population? That would be an interesting data point.
        7y ago

abvr 7y ago

Could you elaborate on why you hold a distasteful attitude towards this person? Just curious.

codezero 7y ago
Have a quick read of Wiki or google and make your own conclusions. From my POV I appreciate his historical contributions but he’s been pretty aggressively against inclusion in tech. Has said a lot of misogynistic and anti-gay things and is very unapologetic about anything he’s said or done. He wants free/open source community to be like it was in the 90s again, and seems pretty anti-progress in anything that’s softer than code. That’s my 2 cents but everyone has their own interpretation.
- DonHopkins 7y ago
  Rational Wiki has a pretty accurate article about him. But it's not up to date with all his racist tweets. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Eric_S._Raymond https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Eric_S._Raymond Although WikiQuote has some but not all of them (when quoting him be sure to put an attribution lest somebody think you're saying those words): https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Eric_S._Raymond https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Eric_S._Raymond "In the U.S., blacks are 12% of the population but commit 50% of violent crimes; can anyone honestly think this is unconnected to the fact that they average 15 points of IQ lower than the general population? That stupid people are more violent is a fact independent of skin color." -Eric S Raymond: http://esr.ibiblio.org/index.php?p=129 http://esr.ibiblio.org/index.php?p=129 "A clash of civilizations driven by the failure of Islamic/Arab culture (though I would stress the problem of the Islamic commandment to jihad more than he does). I think he [Steven den Beste] is also right to say that our long-term objective must be to break, crush and eventually destroy this culture, because we can't live on the same planet with people who both carry those memes and have access to weapons of mass destruction. They will hate us and seek to destroy us not for what we've done but for what we are." -Eric S Raymond: http://armedndangerous.blogspot.com/2002_09_15_armedndangerous_archive.html#81815163 http://armedndangerous.blogspot.com/2002_09_15_armedndangero... "When I hear the words "social responsibility", I want to reach for my gun." -Eric S Raymond When receiving an award from an organization called Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility. "Geeks Win: A survey of the oddballs who write the codes that make the 21st-century world go round". The New York Times Book Review: p. BR18. 4 November 2001. ISSN 03624331. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Standard_Serial_Number https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Standard_Serial_...

blub 7y ago

No it's not sad, that's how a healthy society is supposed to work: harmful content is being criticized and marginalized while useful contributions are accepted, even if they come from the same person. I don't know wtf is up with people these days that they want to erase other humans from public discourse because they have done something bad. People aren't black and white, history has numerous examples of those that contributed beneficial things, while at the same time being less than ideal human beings. Please feel free to explain the author's transgressions through a comment in every submission of theirs, and leave the rest of us to judge the value of the submission on its own.

DonHopkins 7y ago
I certainly don't want to erase ESR. Just the opposite: I want to highlight him with the indelible marker of his own words. I want to educate people about what he's said and done. I want more people to know about his long well documented track record. The earnest questions people are asking about him in this thread means that many people don't actually know about him, and I and other people who do know have every right to answer those questions, provide quotes and citations, and even first hand testimony about his character and behavior from people who have known him for decades and had in-depth discussions with him in person and online, like I have (since the early 80's, when he used to hang out at science fiction conventions also attended by RMS, who he has made his career trying to destroy). I hate to come off like I'm trying to assassinate Eric Raymond's character, but it's fair game to quote the words of someone who's made his career trying to assassinate another person's character, who's done orders of magnitude more great work than he has. At least I'm not trying to make money and fame and sell books by attacking RMS, like ESR does. ESR does an excellent job of assassinating himself with his own words. So I will quote some of the worst ones (there are so many to choose from), but I don't have the stomach to actually link directly to his web site. Lest anyone criticize me for naming and shaming: https://twitter.com/tqbf/status/719621538257903616 https://twitter.com/tqbf/status/719621538257903616 Eric Raymond: "Name them and shame them. Do not hire them unless you want your organization politically disrupted and its productivity destroyed. Um. Disrupted by them, I mean. Not me or their opponents and innocent victims; we have more respect for liberty and freedom of association than that." [retweeting "The Complete List of SJWs]