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The author seems to have assumed that Europe will be a united country which is a major oversight. Even if the UK lost its empire it didn't loose its desire to

The author seems to have assumed that Europe will be a united country which is a major oversight. Even if the UK lost its empire it didn't loose its desire to be "great again". France and Italy seem to lean on the same side.

billpg 7y ago
The UK is on the verge of getting a dose of reality in that regard.
navaati 7y ago
I don't know, that could go (for France at least, but prob Italy as well ?) in one or two generation. A growing number of kids feel European and feel that being part of Europe is great enough (esp. compared to the US and China, national pride is still here of course, just shifted). EDIT: more and more kids -> a growing number of kids
- TomMarius 7y ago
  What about eastern EU?
  - rimliu 7y ago
    Support for EU is very high there. There are some voices, usually with nationalistic tendencies crying about te loss of sovereignty to the "new evil union", but they are mostly ignored.
    - TomMarius 7y ago
      Coming from that part, I wouldn't say that. Definitely nothing about "feeling European".
      - martin_a 7y ago
        That's sad. Why not?
        TomMarius 7y ago
        We still feel like the EU is a close cooperation of countries, not a federation. Our ideas about social system are different, our economies are at a different state of development and have contrasting needs. We fear that with federalization, we might become locked in being suppliers of low-tech parts etc for the more developed regions. It is important to know that almost all big corporations and crucial infrastructure (water supply, etc) are owned by foreign parties from these more developed countries.
        thefounder 7y ago
        >> We still feel like the EU is a close cooperation of countries, not a federation. That's because EU is exactly that at this time: a close cooperation of countries and a bit more(i.e the cohesion policy). Without a fiscal union and a common army you cannot talk about a federalisation. Just look how the Greek financial crisis was handled. Greece was pretty much regarded as a stand alone country that needs to pay alone for its mistakes or leave the union. In a federalisation the burden would be shared like it happened in the U.S. We would talk about european citizens not greek citizens. The pros and cons of federalisation can be debated but I'm not sure if the poor states of the US would do better on their own.
        vetinari 7y ago
        What does "feeling European" even means? Eastern EU doesn't have many reasons to be optimistic: the top 5 positions on the top are taken by Westerners after recent elections (German, Belgian, Dutch / German - each for 2,5 year, Spanish, French); out of all European institutions, only one is headquartered in the east (GNSS - Galileo - in Prague). Etc, etc.
        thefounder 7y ago
        The eastern states came a bit later in the union so that could be a reason for the lack of EU institutions hosted in their country. But I don't think that's the issue. The vast majority of the US gov institutions are hosted in Washington D.C and I don't think this makes Texas residents feel less American. As far as the top positions are concerned I believe it's an issue of candidates and the policy of the host country. Here is a good read about this: https://www.politico.eu/article/brussels-overlooks-central-europeans-top-eu-jobs-spitzenkandidat/ https://www.politico.eu/article/brussels-overlooks-central-e...
  - thefounder 7y ago
    Hungary and few others seem quite against the federalisation/unification of Europe as well. They would rather "take back" their empires and dominate others within Europe.
  - navaati 7y ago
    It depends I think ? Like yeah Poland and Hungary are not big fans these days, but I think Romania has this feeling a bit more ?
- navaati 7y ago
  Replying to kinda everyone at the same time: I was talking more about feeling European in a cultural way, rather than political. A "national pride" kind of feeling, just transnational. Nothing to do with a shared army or fiscal policy.
  - thefounder 7y ago
    I think Europeans have always felt close in a cultural way(more or less) but that alone doesn't make us united and part of a bigger thing(i.e like the Americans feel in the US). Of course you can talk about a common cultural transnational pride but how much does it help? Without a close political union there is no reason to be more proud to be European than is for any random Asian citizen to be proud of being part of Asia or for an African to be proud of being part of the African continent. History shows us that this cultural pride / union is weak and pretty useless when money/business/power is involved.
    - navaati 7y ago
      Fair enough ! Though you raise a point: I'm curious if such a thing indeed exists in Africa and Asia. Africa (and South America actually) I suspect yes, Asia I've got no idea really. And I still think this belonging feeling is stronger in Europe due to the open borders, and the sheer number of your fellow Euro-citizen you interact with in your day to day life in some cities (but I probably have a twisted view because Dublin is crazy in that regard).
      - thefounder 7y ago
        There is an Asian culture[0] so I'm pretty sure Asians relate more to themselves than to residents of a foreign continent though the bond is definitely weaker than in Europe as they have no "pan-asian rights". >> And I still think this belonging feeling is stronger in Europe due to the open borders That's indeed the case and the open borders, free flow of capital, labour etc exist because we have a political union. That's why you can't really talk about transnational European pride without talking about federalisation and sovereignty . The financial crisis, Brexit and Trump put EU in a tough spot. Greece shows us that we need a fiscal and banking union if we want to talk about financial solidarity, Brexit proves that some countries don't want to be states of a United Europe, Trump made it clear that US's protection will not last forever. Even worse, it sees a United Europe as a foe and threat to its supremacy. Now the question about how European you feel is not just an abstract question. You can vote for closer or lesser integration or a total exit. You have to give some national sovereignty to get transnational sovereignty. I believed the European dream, that in time EU cohesion policies lead to a single stronger and united country but now I'm not so sure...looks more like everyone for themselves. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_Asia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_Asia
helb 7y ago
> that Europe will be a united country which is a major oversight It might not look like an oversight in 1930s Germany… > Sörgel's 1938 book Die Drei Grossen A has a quote from Hitler on the flyleaf, demonstrating that the concept was not inconsistent with Nazi ideology. (from the Wikipedia article)
kypro 7y ago
Unless they have very limited power, political unions which seek to unify peoples with significant cultural differences, such as the people of Europe, will always fail.
- PhasmaFelis 7y ago
  How about the United States of America?
  - trhway 7y ago
    excluding #44, do you see much cultural differences here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Presidents_of_the_Unit... ?
    - PhasmaFelis 7y ago
      They're about as similar as the majority of recent European heads of state, so I don't think that by itself proves that the US is more culturally homogeneous.
Sharlin 7y ago
Eh, whatever ambitions for greatness France has, they are in the context of the hypothetical European Federation. The same goes for Germany.
PhasmaFelis 7y ago
It wasn't an assumption, it was a goal. The project was supposed to encourage peaceful cooperation by giving everyone more land and a constructive project to cooperate on. Which is naive, yeah, but he wasn't unaware of the current political situation.

billpg 7y ago

The UK is on the verge of getting a dose of reality in that regard.

navaati 7y ago

I don't know, that could go (for France at least, but prob Italy as well ?) in one or two generation. A growing number of kids feel European and feel that being part of Europe is great enough (esp. compared to the US and China, national pride is still here of course, just shifted). EDIT: more and more kids -> a growing number of kids

TomMarius 7y ago
What about eastern EU?
- rimliu 7y ago
  Support for EU is very high there. There are some voices, usually with nationalistic tendencies crying about te loss of sovereignty to the "new evil union", but they are mostly ignored.
  - TomMarius 7y ago
    Coming from that part, I wouldn't say that. Definitely nothing about "feeling European".
    - martin_a 7y ago
      That's sad. Why not?
      - TomMarius 7y ago
        We still feel like the EU is a close cooperation of countries, not a federation. Our ideas about social system are different, our economies are at a different state of development and have contrasting needs. We fear that with federalization, we might become locked in being suppliers of low-tech parts etc for the more developed regions. It is important to know that almost all big corporations and crucial infrastructure (water supply, etc) are owned by foreign parties from these more developed countries.
        thefounder 7y ago
        >> We still feel like the EU is a close cooperation of countries, not a federation. That's because EU is exactly that at this time: a close cooperation of countries and a bit more(i.e the cohesion policy). Without a fiscal union and a common army you cannot talk about a federalisation. Just look how the Greek financial crisis was handled. Greece was pretty much regarded as a stand alone country that needs to pay alone for its mistakes or leave the union. In a federalisation the burden would be shared like it happened in the U.S. We would talk about european citizens not greek citizens. The pros and cons of federalisation can be debated but I'm not sure if the poor states of the US would do better on their own.
      - vetinari 7y ago
        What does "feeling European" even means? Eastern EU doesn't have many reasons to be optimistic: the top 5 positions on the top are taken by Westerners after recent elections (German, Belgian, Dutch / German - each for 2,5 year, Spanish, French); out of all European institutions, only one is headquartered in the east (GNSS - Galileo - in Prague). Etc, etc.
        thefounder 7y ago
        The eastern states came a bit later in the union so that could be a reason for the lack of EU institutions hosted in their country. But I don't think that's the issue. The vast majority of the US gov institutions are hosted in Washington D.C and I don't think this makes Texas residents feel less American. As far as the top positions are concerned I believe it's an issue of candidates and the policy of the host country. Here is a good read about this: https://www.politico.eu/article/brussels-overlooks-central-europeans-top-eu-jobs-spitzenkandidat/ https://www.politico.eu/article/brussels-overlooks-central-e...
- thefounder 7y ago
  Hungary and few others seem quite against the federalisation/unification of Europe as well. They would rather "take back" their empires and dominate others within Europe.
- navaati 7y ago
  It depends I think ? Like yeah Poland and Hungary are not big fans these days, but I think Romania has this feeling a bit more ?
navaati 7y ago
Replying to kinda everyone at the same time: I was talking more about feeling European in a cultural way, rather than political. A "national pride" kind of feeling, just transnational. Nothing to do with a shared army or fiscal policy.
- thefounder 7y ago
  I think Europeans have always felt close in a cultural way(more or less) but that alone doesn't make us united and part of a bigger thing(i.e like the Americans feel in the US). Of course you can talk about a common cultural transnational pride but how much does it help? Without a close political union there is no reason to be more proud to be European than is for any random Asian citizen to be proud of being part of Asia or for an African to be proud of being part of the African continent. History shows us that this cultural pride / union is weak and pretty useless when money/business/power is involved.
  - navaati 7y ago
    Fair enough ! Though you raise a point: I'm curious if such a thing indeed exists in Africa and Asia. Africa (and South America actually) I suspect yes, Asia I've got no idea really. And I still think this belonging feeling is stronger in Europe due to the open borders, and the sheer number of your fellow Euro-citizen you interact with in your day to day life in some cities (but I probably have a twisted view because Dublin is crazy in that regard).
    - thefounder 7y ago
      There is an Asian culture[0] so I'm pretty sure Asians relate more to themselves than to residents of a foreign continent though the bond is definitely weaker than in Europe as they have no "pan-asian rights". >> And I still think this belonging feeling is stronger in Europe due to the open borders That's indeed the case and the open borders, free flow of capital, labour etc exist because we have a political union. That's why you can't really talk about transnational European pride without talking about federalisation and sovereignty . The financial crisis, Brexit and Trump put EU in a tough spot. Greece shows us that we need a fiscal and banking union if we want to talk about financial solidarity, Brexit proves that some countries don't want to be states of a United Europe, Trump made it clear that US's protection will not last forever. Even worse, it sees a United Europe as a foe and threat to its supremacy. Now the question about how European you feel is not just an abstract question. You can vote for closer or lesser integration or a total exit. You have to give some national sovereignty to get transnational sovereignty. I believed the European dream, that in time EU cohesion policies lead to a single stronger and united country but now I'm not so sure...looks more like everyone for themselves. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_Asia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_Asia

helb 7y ago

> that Europe will be a united country which is a major oversight It might not look like an oversight in 1930s Germany… > Sörgel's 1938 book Die Drei Grossen A has a quote from Hitler on the flyleaf, demonstrating that the concept was not inconsistent with Nazi ideology. (from the Wikipedia article)

kypro 7y ago

Unless they have very limited power, political unions which seek to unify peoples with significant cultural differences, such as the people of Europe, will always fail.

PhasmaFelis 7y ago
How about the United States of America?
- trhway 7y ago
  excluding #44, do you see much cultural differences here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Presidents_of_the_Unit... ?
  - PhasmaFelis 7y ago
    They're about as similar as the majority of recent European heads of state, so I don't think that by itself proves that the US is more culturally homogeneous.

Sharlin 7y ago

Eh, whatever ambitions for greatness France has, they are in the context of the hypothetical European Federation. The same goes for Germany.

PhasmaFelis 7y ago

It wasn't an assumption, it was a goal. The project was supposed to encourage peaceful cooperation by giving everyone more land and a constructive project to cooperate on. Which is naive, yeah, but he wasn't unaware of the current political situation.