5 ms·

Imagine a USA where the citizens are no longer armed, and the 1st Amendment has been cannibalized by the passing of various "hate speech" laws that only serve t

Imagine a USA where the citizens are no longer armed, and the 1st Amendment has been cannibalized by the passing of various "hate speech" laws that only serve the interests of the current elected... and then imagine trying to redress a Government gone full Orwellian. Just sayin.

identity0 7y ago
What you're describing is literally the UK right now.
- RaceWon 7y ago
  > What you're describing is literally the UK right now. That's what I understand... and that is Exactly why I posted my original comment.
JetSpiegel 7y ago
How is this particular development relevant? The US government still has nukes, SSN, etc etc etc. This particular reading of the 2nd Amendment seems to have been frozen in time since the drafting of the Constitution.
- RaceWon 7y ago
  > How is this particular development relevant? Well God forbid it ever comes to that, but there's probably 60 Million people with guns here, and most own more than one... so basically a gun for every man, woman and child; its a formidable defense against tyranny. I mean it's not like we won in Viet Nam, to name one armed conflict that didn't go our way.
  - enraged_camel 7y ago
    >>so basically a gun for every man, woman and child; its a formidable defense against tyranny. No it isn't? I mean, I know it's a very common conservative fantasy, but if the federal government comes after you, they are doing so with tanks and helicopters, and your puny guns won't change the outcome. Vietnam is not a good analogy. Your average American is dumb, fat and undisciplined. The Viet Cong were none of those things. This is aside from the fact that an armed populace only encourages the government's law enforcement agencies to arm themselves more, and increases tensions in every encounter because the LEO has to assume the target is armed.
    - DuskStar 7y ago
      > but if the federal government comes after you, they are doing so with tanks and helicopters, and your puny guns won't change the outcome. Vietnam is not a good analogy. Your average American is dumb, fat and undisciplined. The Viet Cong were none of those things. Because our tanks and helicopters have done so well at suppressing a bunch of afghani sheepherders, right? I don't think you're really qualified to evaluate the ability of the US's rural population to adapt to guerrilla warfare. In all seriousness, it's easy to use superior weaponry to subjugate a populace... if one of the win conditions is killing everyone in the population to be subjugated. As soon as you have to care about things like "mass killings" or "civilian casualties" or "are you sure this isn't genocide" that gets a lot harder. And I'm relatively sure that the people who make up the US military would care, particularly when it's people they identify with that they're exterminating.
    - AnthonyMouse 7y ago
      > if the federal government comes after you, they are doing so with tanks and helicopters What is that supposed to do against the domestic population? Would they use their tanks and planes to blow up their own bridges and cities? Those are weapons used to claim territory from other governments. They're not very useful in a guerilla war where you don't even know who the enemy is. > Vietnam is not a good analogy. Your average American is dumb, fat and undisciplined. The Viet Cong were none of those things. Where does that leave the American government if that's the population they draw their soldiers and law enforcement from and they're each only trained for a couple of months? What do you do when half your new recruits sign up with the intent to turn against you as soon as you've trained them and provided them with weapons and equipment? Fighting a civil war is hard. The US government is well aware of that, hence the bread and circuses. > This is aside from the fact that an armed populace only encourages the government's law enforcement agencies to arm themselves more, and increases tensions in every encounter because the LEO has to assume the target is armed. The solution to which is to expressly prohibit them from doing so. Random sheriffs have zero need for military tanks and riot gear and they shouldn't even be allowed to touch it. You don't need a SWAT team to serve a warrant on a check forger. You don't need a SWAT team at all, because anything it could legitimately be used for is the rightful role of the national guard. Just because the domestic population is armed doesn't mean even 1% of them would shoot a police officer. And the people who would, tend to be the people who acquire firearms unlawfully regardless. If the problem is that violent drug dealers have illegally-obtained guns, you can't solve that by taking legally-obtained guns away from peaceful hill billies and women who just want to feel safe walking home at night.
- vorpalhex 7y ago
  There's a reason Kent State went down the way it did, and also why there's no US version of Tiananmen square. A radioactive crater isn't much of an economy, and the armed forces are made up of, well, you know, people who like most folk, don't enjoy shooting at people much like them. The 2nd Amendment doesn't grant a right to bear arms - it prohibits the Government from restricting the right.
  - pjc50 7y ago
    How about Wounded Knee?
    - vorpalhex 7y ago
      It was real unfortunate that most of the Native Americans had already been disarmed, otherwise it would have probably played out very differently. It's definitely a dark stain on the US.
vangelis 7y ago
What would these 'hate speech' laws ban exactly? I'm trying to picture who exactly the implied oppressive government is ran by.
- AnthonyMouse 7y ago
  > What would these 'hate speech' laws ban exactly? Is it not authoritarianism if it's Our Guys? You can classify anything as hate speech. Propose a restrictive immigration policy? That's hate speech against immigrant populations, an attack on their economic opportunity. Propose a permissive immigration policy? Hate speech against the native population, an attack on their cultural survival. Anything that affects anyone can be construed as being intolerant of anyone it negatively affects. Since all significant policies affect people, anything your opponents say can be classified as hate speech by an authoritarian who doesn't like them.
  - pjc50 7y ago
    > Is it not authoritarianism if it's Our Guys? Isn't this the argument that the concentration camps being run to detain refugees and separate their families aren't authoritarian because the government and their media allies say so? The problem with the 2nd amendment approach is that a lot of the militia types are quite in favour of authoritarianism so long as it hits people they don't like.
    - AnthonyMouse 7y ago
      > Isn't this the argument that the concentration camps being run to detain refugees and separate their families aren't authoritarian because the government and their media allies say so? Only if you're the government and their media allies. Anything that puts people in cages is authoritarian. You can argue that sometimes it's worth the cost, but then you're arguing that sometimes authoritarianism is worth the cost. And generally speaking it isn't and we should have a high bar for all imprisonment. (Though the immigration case is somewhat confounded if being in the cage is only an optional alternative to being immediately delivered out of the country and released there pending an immigration status decision.) > The problem with the 2nd amendment approach is that a lot of the militia types are quite in favour of authoritarianism so long as it hits people they don't like. So what's stopping the people who don't like that form of authoritarianism from taking advantage of the 2nd amendment themselves?
pjc50 7y ago
A key element of the government going full Orwell is to make sure that most people believe their propaganda first. To establish an alternative news system that tells them who to hate. The entire narrative about refugees has been steered in this direction, enabling the government to treat them in an extremely authoritarian fashion. They're not citizens and they don't have guns, so the rest of the public is fine with mistreating them. It's only six dead children so far. Barely moves the outrage needle. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/may/23/migrant-child-us-custody-deaths-hhs-outcry https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/may/23/migrant-chil...

identity0 7y ago

What you're describing is literally the UK right now.

RaceWon 7y ago
> What you're describing is literally the UK right now. That's what I understand... and that is Exactly why I posted my original comment.

JetSpiegel 7y ago

How is this particular development relevant? The US government still has nukes, SSN, etc etc etc. This particular reading of the 2nd Amendment seems to have been frozen in time since the drafting of the Constitution.

RaceWon 7y ago
> How is this particular development relevant? Well God forbid it ever comes to that, but there's probably 60 Million people with guns here, and most own more than one... so basically a gun for every man, woman and child; its a formidable defense against tyranny. I mean it's not like we won in Viet Nam, to name one armed conflict that didn't go our way.
- enraged_camel 7y ago
  >>so basically a gun for every man, woman and child; its a formidable defense against tyranny. No it isn't? I mean, I know it's a very common conservative fantasy, but if the federal government comes after you, they are doing so with tanks and helicopters, and your puny guns won't change the outcome. Vietnam is not a good analogy. Your average American is dumb, fat and undisciplined. The Viet Cong were none of those things. This is aside from the fact that an armed populace only encourages the government's law enforcement agencies to arm themselves more, and increases tensions in every encounter because the LEO has to assume the target is armed.
  - DuskStar 7y ago
    > but if the federal government comes after you, they are doing so with tanks and helicopters, and your puny guns won't change the outcome. Vietnam is not a good analogy. Your average American is dumb, fat and undisciplined. The Viet Cong were none of those things. Because our tanks and helicopters have done so well at suppressing a bunch of afghani sheepherders, right? I don't think you're really qualified to evaluate the ability of the US's rural population to adapt to guerrilla warfare. In all seriousness, it's easy to use superior weaponry to subjugate a populace... if one of the win conditions is killing everyone in the population to be subjugated. As soon as you have to care about things like "mass killings" or "civilian casualties" or "are you sure this isn't genocide" that gets a lot harder. And I'm relatively sure that the people who make up the US military would care, particularly when it's people they identify with that they're exterminating.
  - AnthonyMouse 7y ago
    > if the federal government comes after you, they are doing so with tanks and helicopters What is that supposed to do against the domestic population? Would they use their tanks and planes to blow up their own bridges and cities? Those are weapons used to claim territory from other governments. They're not very useful in a guerilla war where you don't even know who the enemy is. > Vietnam is not a good analogy. Your average American is dumb, fat and undisciplined. The Viet Cong were none of those things. Where does that leave the American government if that's the population they draw their soldiers and law enforcement from and they're each only trained for a couple of months? What do you do when half your new recruits sign up with the intent to turn against you as soon as you've trained them and provided them with weapons and equipment? Fighting a civil war is hard. The US government is well aware of that, hence the bread and circuses. > This is aside from the fact that an armed populace only encourages the government's law enforcement agencies to arm themselves more, and increases tensions in every encounter because the LEO has to assume the target is armed. The solution to which is to expressly prohibit them from doing so. Random sheriffs have zero need for military tanks and riot gear and they shouldn't even be allowed to touch it. You don't need a SWAT team to serve a warrant on a check forger. You don't need a SWAT team at all, because anything it could legitimately be used for is the rightful role of the national guard. Just because the domestic population is armed doesn't mean even 1% of them would shoot a police officer. And the people who would, tend to be the people who acquire firearms unlawfully regardless. If the problem is that violent drug dealers have illegally-obtained guns, you can't solve that by taking legally-obtained guns away from peaceful hill billies and women who just want to feel safe walking home at night.
vorpalhex 7y ago
There's a reason Kent State went down the way it did, and also why there's no US version of Tiananmen square. A radioactive crater isn't much of an economy, and the armed forces are made up of, well, you know, people who like most folk, don't enjoy shooting at people much like them. The 2nd Amendment doesn't grant a right to bear arms - it prohibits the Government from restricting the right.
- pjc50 7y ago
  How about Wounded Knee?
  - vorpalhex 7y ago
    It was real unfortunate that most of the Native Americans had already been disarmed, otherwise it would have probably played out very differently. It's definitely a dark stain on the US.

vangelis 7y ago

What would these 'hate speech' laws ban exactly? I'm trying to picture who exactly the implied oppressive government is ran by.

AnthonyMouse 7y ago
> What would these 'hate speech' laws ban exactly? Is it not authoritarianism if it's Our Guys? You can classify anything as hate speech. Propose a restrictive immigration policy? That's hate speech against immigrant populations, an attack on their economic opportunity. Propose a permissive immigration policy? Hate speech against the native population, an attack on their cultural survival. Anything that affects anyone can be construed as being intolerant of anyone it negatively affects. Since all significant policies affect people, anything your opponents say can be classified as hate speech by an authoritarian who doesn't like them.
- pjc50 7y ago
  > Is it not authoritarianism if it's Our Guys? Isn't this the argument that the concentration camps being run to detain refugees and separate their families aren't authoritarian because the government and their media allies say so? The problem with the 2nd amendment approach is that a lot of the militia types are quite in favour of authoritarianism so long as it hits people they don't like.
  - AnthonyMouse 7y ago
    > Isn't this the argument that the concentration camps being run to detain refugees and separate their families aren't authoritarian because the government and their media allies say so? Only if you're the government and their media allies. Anything that puts people in cages is authoritarian. You can argue that sometimes it's worth the cost, but then you're arguing that sometimes authoritarianism is worth the cost. And generally speaking it isn't and we should have a high bar for all imprisonment. (Though the immigration case is somewhat confounded if being in the cage is only an optional alternative to being immediately delivered out of the country and released there pending an immigration status decision.) > The problem with the 2nd amendment approach is that a lot of the militia types are quite in favour of authoritarianism so long as it hits people they don't like. So what's stopping the people who don't like that form of authoritarianism from taking advantage of the 2nd amendment themselves?

pjc50 7y ago

A key element of the government going full Orwell is to make sure that most people believe their propaganda first. To establish an alternative news system that tells them who to hate. The entire narrative about refugees has been steered in this direction, enabling the government to treat them in an extremely authoritarian fashion. They're not citizens and they don't have guns, so the rest of the public is fine with mistreating them. It's only six dead children so far. Barely moves the outrage needle. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/may/23/migrant-child-us-custody-deaths-hhs-outcry https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/may/23/migrant-chil...