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> This effect is so reliable that if you meet someone who isn't extremist about anything it's safe to say that they don't think for themselves, rationally or no

> This effect is so reliable that if you meet someone who isn't extremist about anything it's safe to say that they don't think for themselves, rationally or not. This seems rather self indulgent when you've set the criteria so vaguely. Perhaps an example of an extemist view would be beneficial.

barry-cotter 7y ago
The tax system is incredibly poorly designed everywhere. Rather than the hodgepodge of different races, levied at different places and times for different reasons by different levels of government a single tax is best. I’m partial to either a Georgist Land value tax or a consumption tax but I’m sure there are other good options. Large scale immigration is incompatible with a welfare state unless immigrants are highly selected, as in Canada or Australia. If the US continues its march to open borders the welfare state will be dismantled or citizenship law will change to have multiple categories of rights for different types of citizens and residents. Civic nationalism is incoherent unless people can be expelled from the community. Ethnic nations make sense, because people are loyal to their kin or cultural group. A group where people had to sign on to an explicit statement of values makes sense because then there’d be a very clear signal of whether you were in or out. Liberalism only works with a huge majority in favour of its values and without that huge majority that agree on most things it will slide towards political violence and likely civil war without vicious political repression.
- spaced-out 7y ago
  > The tax system is incredibly poorly designed everywhere. Rather than the hodgepodge of different races, levied at different places and times for different reasons by different levels of government a single tax is best. I’m partial to either a Georgist Land value tax or a consumption tax but I’m sure there are other good options. So you don't agree with how taxes work and think you could do better? I challenge you to find someone who DOESN'T think that. >If the US continues its march to open borders the welfare state will be dismantled or citizenship law will change to have multiple categories of rights for different types of citizens and residents. This is already the case. There are many services open to only US citizens, and others open only to citizens and lawful permanent residents. >Civic nationalism is incoherent unless people can be expelled from the community. In the US we refer to this as "jail". >A group where people had to sign on to an explicit statement of values makes sense because then there’d be a very clear signal of whether you were in or out. Many Protestant Christian denominations refer to this as "confirmation". I believe there is an equivalent concept in Catholicism; Bar/Bat mitzvah serves this purpose in Judaism. ... My point being, all of these views are completely mainstream.
  - barry-cotter 7y ago
    > So you don't agree with how taxes work and think you could do better? I challenge you to find someone who DOESN'T think that. If you can point to a country that has only one tax or a party that has that position I’d be much obliged. > This is already the case. There are many services open to only US citizens, and others open only to citizens and lawful permanent residents. The US has different classes of citizenship, with different rights? >> Civic nationalism is incoherent unless people can be expelled from the community. > In the US we refer to this as "jail". Timeout is not the same thing as being told you’re no longer part of the family. US citizens can’t be deported. Plenty of states allow ex-convicts to vote. > Many Protestant Christian denominations refer to this as "confirmation". I believe there is an equivalent concept in Catholicism; Bar/Bat mitzvah serves this purpose in Judaism. The context in which I was saying this was membership in a national community. I am unaware of any country that demands citizens affirm a statement of shared values to partake in political life. The closest any country has is conscription for male citizens and it’s not that close.
    - comex 7y ago
      > The US has different classes of citizenship, with different rights? The US has citizens, many different classes of lawful residents, and unlawful residents, each group having different rights and different levels of access to government services.
- glennpratt 7y ago
  So, not really extremist, just boring, nationalist fear mongering that is nearly old as time. You are entitled to your opinions and I mine. You probably think I am incapable of independent thought and I think you're a narcissist for thinking that.
  - barry-cotter 7y ago
    I’d be surprised if you were incapable of independent thought. If your political views all fit neatly within a single party’s mainstream it could be true but there’s enough that isn’t subject to political shibboleths that you likely hold some unconventional views. Just being the kind of person who takes part on a discussion board like this is (weak) evidence of the kind of engagement with ideas that renders taking a party line unlikely. Nationalist views are not as old as time. They postdate imperial views substantially. If supporting open borders or massively increased immigration to developed nations makes me a nationalist the label rests easy. I don’t think open borders is compatible with the current constitutional settlement in the US. If that makes me a nationalist so be it.
    - glennpratt 7y ago
      > your political views all fit neatly within a single party’s mainstream That wasn't the claim I was addressing.

barry-cotter 7y ago

The tax system is incredibly poorly designed everywhere. Rather than the hodgepodge of different races, levied at different places and times for different reasons by different levels of government a single tax is best. I’m partial to either a Georgist Land value tax or a consumption tax but I’m sure there are other good options. Large scale immigration is incompatible with a welfare state unless immigrants are highly selected, as in Canada or Australia. If the US continues its march to open borders the welfare state will be dismantled or citizenship law will change to have multiple categories of rights for different types of citizens and residents. Civic nationalism is incoherent unless people can be expelled from the community. Ethnic nations make sense, because people are loyal to their kin or cultural group. A group where people had to sign on to an explicit statement of values makes sense because then there’d be a very clear signal of whether you were in or out. Liberalism only works with a huge majority in favour of its values and without that huge majority that agree on most things it will slide towards political violence and likely civil war without vicious political repression.

spaced-out 7y ago
> The tax system is incredibly poorly designed everywhere. Rather than the hodgepodge of different races, levied at different places and times for different reasons by different levels of government a single tax is best. I’m partial to either a Georgist Land value tax or a consumption tax but I’m sure there are other good options. So you don't agree with how taxes work and think you could do better? I challenge you to find someone who DOESN'T think that. >If the US continues its march to open borders the welfare state will be dismantled or citizenship law will change to have multiple categories of rights for different types of citizens and residents. This is already the case. There are many services open to only US citizens, and others open only to citizens and lawful permanent residents. >Civic nationalism is incoherent unless people can be expelled from the community. In the US we refer to this as "jail". >A group where people had to sign on to an explicit statement of values makes sense because then there’d be a very clear signal of whether you were in or out. Many Protestant Christian denominations refer to this as "confirmation". I believe there is an equivalent concept in Catholicism; Bar/Bat mitzvah serves this purpose in Judaism. ... My point being, all of these views are completely mainstream.
- barry-cotter 7y ago
  > So you don't agree with how taxes work and think you could do better? I challenge you to find someone who DOESN'T think that. If you can point to a country that has only one tax or a party that has that position I’d be much obliged. > This is already the case. There are many services open to only US citizens, and others open only to citizens and lawful permanent residents. The US has different classes of citizenship, with different rights? >> Civic nationalism is incoherent unless people can be expelled from the community. > In the US we refer to this as "jail". Timeout is not the same thing as being told you’re no longer part of the family. US citizens can’t be deported. Plenty of states allow ex-convicts to vote. > Many Protestant Christian denominations refer to this as "confirmation". I believe there is an equivalent concept in Catholicism; Bar/Bat mitzvah serves this purpose in Judaism. The context in which I was saying this was membership in a national community. I am unaware of any country that demands citizens affirm a statement of shared values to partake in political life. The closest any country has is conscription for male citizens and it’s not that close.
  - comex 7y ago
    > The US has different classes of citizenship, with different rights? The US has citizens, many different classes of lawful residents, and unlawful residents, each group having different rights and different levels of access to government services.
glennpratt 7y ago
So, not really extremist, just boring, nationalist fear mongering that is nearly old as time. You are entitled to your opinions and I mine. You probably think I am incapable of independent thought and I think you're a narcissist for thinking that.
- barry-cotter 7y ago
  I’d be surprised if you were incapable of independent thought. If your political views all fit neatly within a single party’s mainstream it could be true but there’s enough that isn’t subject to political shibboleths that you likely hold some unconventional views. Just being the kind of person who takes part on a discussion board like this is (weak) evidence of the kind of engagement with ideas that renders taking a party line unlikely. Nationalist views are not as old as time. They postdate imperial views substantially. If supporting open borders or massively increased immigration to developed nations makes me a nationalist the label rests easy. I don’t think open borders is compatible with the current constitutional settlement in the US. If that makes me a nationalist so be it.
  - glennpratt 7y ago
    > your political views all fit neatly within a single party’s mainstream That wasn't the claim I was addressing.