5 ms·

You seem to think you know better than the parent commenter what their experience was, despite the fact that they were there and you were not. Interestingly, wh

You seem to think you know better than the parent commenter what their experience was, despite the fact that they were there and you were not. Interestingly, what you imply is a more negative view of the experience rather than a more positive, which may make one think you hold a prejudiced view of the French specifically for some unstated reason.

rasz 7y ago
Have you been abroad? and compared your experiences to France? Speaking broken Czech in Prague gets smiles, encouragement and comments about Slavic language similarities. Doing the same in France results in evil eye and being treated as an asshole.
- pmyteh 7y ago
  Not uniform across France, either. If you try your broken French in out-of-the-way villages in Brittany, you will generally once again get your smiles and encouragement. In Paris, more of the evil eye. The Netherlands is interesting. It's nearly guaranteed that their English is better than your Dutch, so if you try anything more than "good morning" then they will generally rapidly switch to English. More politely than in France, but with a firmness that indicates no desire at all to waste time on communication problems when none are necessary.
  - Phemist 7y ago
    You can even have it the other way around. An English colleague of mine tried to be polite and speak in (obviously non-native) Dutch to a Dutch lady in a super market once. The lady got offended by it and said "I _do_ speak English, you know". As if, rather than for practice, he tried to speak Dutch because he assumed she couldn't hold up her end of a conversation in English.
    - lowdose 7y ago
      It's called the expat paradox.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- mehrdadn 7y ago
  I spoke pretty broken French in Paris and all I received was kindness. Obviously YMMV but I wouldn't paint with a broad brush like this.
- aeontech 7y ago
  I have, in multiple countries, including France. My French is far from perfect, but I don’t recall being insulted or derided for my attempts to use it, even in Paris which tends to be the epicenter of these experiences for others from what I hear. I do wonder if this is a cultural difference as another fellow commenter mentioned - maybe I was corrected and did not take it as an insult (and don’t even recall it), because I am not originally English or American. Anyway, my point was that you were propagating a negative stereotype, and not based on your own experience even. The world has enough negativity already... It’s not nice.
meowface 7y ago
I've never been to France but I've heard this stereotype many, many times elsewhere online: that the French don't want foreigners speaking French even if their French skills are good, because they don't like to hear even the slightest imperfection in pronunciation or usage, seeing it as some sort of defilement of their language. The stereotype is especially pronounced for Parisians, and appears to only exist for European French. No clue how accurate it is, but I've heard it repeated so often that I can understand why the parent posted that. Would be interested in input from tourists and French natives regarding the stereotype. Given the French government's unusually stringent prescriptivism, which I think is shared by much or most of the populace, this seems plausible on the face.
- arkh 7y ago
  I think it is a cultural difference. I'm French. When I mispronounce something people will correct me. That's how we learn and it is expected. Now when I voicechat with American people and say something they don't understand I just get some "polite" silence. So I think it is a case of people taking offense because of a culture difference. "They're white, using the same characters as us so they're the same", nope.
- MayeulC 7y ago
  > they don't like to hear even the slightest imperfection in pronunciation or usage, seeing it as some sort of defilement of their language. As a native French speaker, this strikes me as odd, since it is typically a foreign thing to consider French as the epitome of spoken languages, that makes most French people I know scratch their heads uncomfortably. I interact with foreigners everyday, most of the time in English. Most of them are PhD students that spend at least three years in France, and usually acquire some French along the way, to varying degrees of proficiency (from greetings to highly technical/rhetorical conversations) I know some of them that handle it well enough for basic conversations, and I will usually go along with them until it becomes difficult for either party to understand the other. Actually, I might be a bit too eager to switch back to English as I have a stereotypical view of their possible interactions with other French people, who might not "excel" at English. Usually, I will not correct them on a word unless it was the root cause for a misunderstanding, or they asked me to tell them when they do a mistake. I am also happy to discuss grammar and etymology topics, as I am usually curious about other languages as well. I do not want to keep them from learning French, nor force them to speak it, so I'll play along what I guessed their intentions were, based on our previous interactions. On the other hand, we are taught French at school with very rigid rules, which are tweaked from time to time (by the "Académie Française"). This helps with uniformization, but could be argued either way. And finally, it might be a bit elitist of me, but a lot of French people struggle with proper writing (French is much harder to write than it is to read or speak), which I think looks very unprofessional and neglected. Quite a lot of people will frown on this (at least those that make fewer mistakes), though foreigners usually get a free pass (from myself at least, not quite sure about others). I hope that clears things up a bit. I find it a very interesting topic, as are the issues of social integration and forming small cliques.

rasz 7y ago

Have you been abroad? and compared your experiences to France? Speaking broken Czech in Prague gets smiles, encouragement and comments about Slavic language similarities. Doing the same in France results in evil eye and being treated as an asshole.

pmyteh 7y ago
Not uniform across France, either. If you try your broken French in out-of-the-way villages in Brittany, you will generally once again get your smiles and encouragement. In Paris, more of the evil eye. The Netherlands is interesting. It's nearly guaranteed that their English is better than your Dutch, so if you try anything more than "good morning" then they will generally rapidly switch to English. More politely than in France, but with a firmness that indicates no desire at all to waste time on communication problems when none are necessary.
- Phemist 7y ago
  You can even have it the other way around. An English colleague of mine tried to be polite and speak in (obviously non-native) Dutch to a Dutch lady in a super market once. The lady got offended by it and said "I _do_ speak English, you know". As if, rather than for practice, he tried to speak Dutch because he assumed she couldn't hold up her end of a conversation in English.
  - lowdose 7y ago
    It's called the expat paradox.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
mehrdadn 7y ago
I spoke pretty broken French in Paris and all I received was kindness. Obviously YMMV but I wouldn't paint with a broad brush like this.
aeontech 7y ago
I have, in multiple countries, including France. My French is far from perfect, but I don’t recall being insulted or derided for my attempts to use it, even in Paris which tends to be the epicenter of these experiences for others from what I hear. I do wonder if this is a cultural difference as another fellow commenter mentioned - maybe I was corrected and did not take it as an insult (and don’t even recall it), because I am not originally English or American. Anyway, my point was that you were propagating a negative stereotype, and not based on your own experience even. The world has enough negativity already... It’s not nice.

meowface 7y ago

I've never been to France but I've heard this stereotype many, many times elsewhere online: that the French don't want foreigners speaking French even if their French skills are good, because they don't like to hear even the slightest imperfection in pronunciation or usage, seeing it as some sort of defilement of their language. The stereotype is especially pronounced for Parisians, and appears to only exist for European French. No clue how accurate it is, but I've heard it repeated so often that I can understand why the parent posted that. Would be interested in input from tourists and French natives regarding the stereotype. Given the French government's unusually stringent prescriptivism, which I think is shared by much or most of the populace, this seems plausible on the face.

arkh 7y ago
I think it is a cultural difference. I'm French. When I mispronounce something people will correct me. That's how we learn and it is expected. Now when I voicechat with American people and say something they don't understand I just get some "polite" silence. So I think it is a case of people taking offense because of a culture difference. "They're white, using the same characters as us so they're the same", nope.
MayeulC 7y ago
> they don't like to hear even the slightest imperfection in pronunciation or usage, seeing it as some sort of defilement of their language. As a native French speaker, this strikes me as odd, since it is typically a foreign thing to consider French as the epitome of spoken languages, that makes most French people I know scratch their heads uncomfortably. I interact with foreigners everyday, most of the time in English. Most of them are PhD students that spend at least three years in France, and usually acquire some French along the way, to varying degrees of proficiency (from greetings to highly technical/rhetorical conversations) I know some of them that handle it well enough for basic conversations, and I will usually go along with them until it becomes difficult for either party to understand the other. Actually, I might be a bit too eager to switch back to English as I have a stereotypical view of their possible interactions with other French people, who might not "excel" at English. Usually, I will not correct them on a word unless it was the root cause for a misunderstanding, or they asked me to tell them when they do a mistake. I am also happy to discuss grammar and etymology topics, as I am usually curious about other languages as well. I do not want to keep them from learning French, nor force them to speak it, so I'll play along what I guessed their intentions were, based on our previous interactions. On the other hand, we are taught French at school with very rigid rules, which are tweaked from time to time (by the "Académie Française"). This helps with uniformization, but could be argued either way. And finally, it might be a bit elitist of me, but a lot of French people struggle with proper writing (French is much harder to write than it is to read or speak), which I think looks very unprofessional and neglected. Quite a lot of people will frown on this (at least those that make fewer mistakes), though foreigners usually get a free pass (from myself at least, not quite sure about others). I hope that clears things up a bit. I find it a very interesting topic, as are the issues of social integration and forming small cliques.