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Another compelling point is that high school foreign language students almost never gain meaningful competence in the language they study: https://www.econlib.o

Another compelling point is that high school foreign language students almost never gain meaningful competence in the language they study: https://www.econlib.org/archives/2012/08/the_marginal_pr.html https://www.econlib.org/archives/2012/08/the_marginal_pr.htm... Math courses have a much better track record of actually teaching their students something. However, I think individual students should still take foreign languages in high school to fulfill college application requirements. On a societal level, though, those requirements are a massive waste of time and money.

Kaveren 7y ago
As far as the U.S. goes, I doubt students remember much of the math they learn, or gain much more competency in math than they would via a language course.
- robertAngst 7y ago
  I teach a programming class and one of the 'easy' things I ask about is- "Have you taken algebra?" All but 1 person had taken algebra, and with that I start into variables and functions. So yes, people learn competent math skills in high school.
  - Kaveren 7y ago
    Knowing what functions and variables are is below high school level, and I'd say it'd be comparative to knowing basic greetings in a foreign language. I doubt that many students who don't go on to study math after high school remember what's taught in courses at or past the Algebra 2 level.
- alexhutcheson 7y ago
  There are lots of standardized tests that evaluate students’ math proficiency, and lots of research examining specifically how much math proficiency students gain from each year of school. Learning and retention could definitely be improved, but I’ve never seen research that claims it’s as low as it apparently is for foreign languages.
  - nicoburns 7y ago
    Standardised tests are pretty terrible at measuring actual competency. Standardised testing is one of the reasons why the US's school system is so poor. And I say this as someone who generally excels at these kind of arbitrary tests.
slaslasla 7y ago
That is not relevant to the post, which assumes that the reader is actually interested in learning a language. Many (I would say most) high school students are not, and don't invest more than the minimum amount of time required to pass their courses. Yes, if you do not practice regularly (preferably daily), and with persistence, you will not reach a high level at a foreign language. Relatively speaking, maybe math is easier. But that's not much of an argument for math and against language learning, unless you have no actual interests and just want to check a box off a list. To be fair, many (and maybe most) adults who claim to be interested in language learning also end up giving up because they are not willing to put in the effort. Too bad for them, and for you if you find it a "waste of time and money"; I find it far more rewarding than flaunting advanced math knowledge.
ajmurmann 7y ago
> Another compelling point is that high school foreign language students almost never gain meaningful competence in the language they study My guess is that this depends on the usefulness in somewhat common situations. English for non-native English speakers seems to work pretty well, especially in counties that don't dub movies and TV shows. I'm using my high school language skills right now. Edit: admittedly, Latin didn't stick well with me though.
- pimmen 7y ago
  I would say that the motivation non-English speaking students get from being immersed in English language media does more than half the work, though. Speaking as a Swede who took high school German and can barely introduce myself.
maoeurk 7y ago
I think that's more to do with how we teach it and expect it be learned than the subject itself. I took 4 years of German in school and have almost nothing to show for it. I went to Germany for the first time recently and was only able to barely perform basic transactions, granted it's been 6 years since I've used it. But I started self-studying Japanese (and later Chinese) on the order of 30 minutes a day and was able to have conversations that lasted hours with multiple people at a bar in Taiwan after studying for just 2.5 years. I went to "one of the best public schools" in America and have heard that college level language education isn't much better, so I think this is universally true of language learning classes in America. The truth is that learning a foreign language is very "hard", where "hard" means requiring daily effort and willpower while often feeling confused and looking stupid while seeing little or no results for extended periods of time. Generalizing this, I also thought I didn't like math until I went to university because all my math classes had been extremely boring and uninspiring. On a personal level, public school past the age of 14 was a massive waste of time and money.
- iforgotpassword 7y ago
  Can second this. 5 years of French, it's even my neighbor country, and I can't have any meaningful conversation. It's been over a decade though. French has always been that thing you had to do for school, there was no motivation or interest in it, especially at that age. Otoh I took a three month crash course in mandarin and could have very simple conversations about the weather, food and family with actual native speakers. Obviously I totally regret how absolutely inefficient I was at learning French because today I agree with what the article touches on: Learning a language is good for your brain, you not only discover structures and ways to express yourself in ways that weren't possible in your mother tongue. You find that some concept is really easy to express in that foreign language but not your own, or vice versa. Words that don't exist in your mother language etc. That is not to say learning other things (like math) doesn't have positive effects on your brain, but the article seems to limit the usefulness of learning a language directly to the utility value of speaking it.

Kaveren 7y ago

As far as the U.S. goes, I doubt students remember much of the math they learn, or gain much more competency in math than they would via a language course.

robertAngst 7y ago
I teach a programming class and one of the 'easy' things I ask about is- "Have you taken algebra?" All but 1 person had taken algebra, and with that I start into variables and functions. So yes, people learn competent math skills in high school.
- Kaveren 7y ago
  Knowing what functions and variables are is below high school level, and I'd say it'd be comparative to knowing basic greetings in a foreign language. I doubt that many students who don't go on to study math after high school remember what's taught in courses at or past the Algebra 2 level.
alexhutcheson 7y ago
There are lots of standardized tests that evaluate students’ math proficiency, and lots of research examining specifically how much math proficiency students gain from each year of school. Learning and retention could definitely be improved, but I’ve never seen research that claims it’s as low as it apparently is for foreign languages.
- nicoburns 7y ago
  Standardised tests are pretty terrible at measuring actual competency. Standardised testing is one of the reasons why the US's school system is so poor. And I say this as someone who generally excels at these kind of arbitrary tests.

slaslasla 7y ago

That is not relevant to the post, which assumes that the reader is actually interested in learning a language. Many (I would say most) high school students are not, and don't invest more than the minimum amount of time required to pass their courses. Yes, if you do not practice regularly (preferably daily), and with persistence, you will not reach a high level at a foreign language. Relatively speaking, maybe math is easier. But that's not much of an argument for math and against language learning, unless you have no actual interests and just want to check a box off a list. To be fair, many (and maybe most) adults who claim to be interested in language learning also end up giving up because they are not willing to put in the effort. Too bad for them, and for you if you find it a "waste of time and money"; I find it far more rewarding than flaunting advanced math knowledge.

ajmurmann 7y ago

> Another compelling point is that high school foreign language students almost never gain meaningful competence in the language they study My guess is that this depends on the usefulness in somewhat common situations. English for non-native English speakers seems to work pretty well, especially in counties that don't dub movies and TV shows. I'm using my high school language skills right now. Edit: admittedly, Latin didn't stick well with me though.

pimmen 7y ago
I would say that the motivation non-English speaking students get from being immersed in English language media does more than half the work, though. Speaking as a Swede who took high school German and can barely introduce myself.

maoeurk 7y ago

I think that's more to do with how we teach it and expect it be learned than the subject itself. I took 4 years of German in school and have almost nothing to show for it. I went to Germany for the first time recently and was only able to barely perform basic transactions, granted it's been 6 years since I've used it. But I started self-studying Japanese (and later Chinese) on the order of 30 minutes a day and was able to have conversations that lasted hours with multiple people at a bar in Taiwan after studying for just 2.5 years. I went to "one of the best public schools" in America and have heard that college level language education isn't much better, so I think this is universally true of language learning classes in America. The truth is that learning a foreign language is very "hard", where "hard" means requiring daily effort and willpower while often feeling confused and looking stupid while seeing little or no results for extended periods of time. Generalizing this, I also thought I didn't like math until I went to university because all my math classes had been extremely boring and uninspiring. On a personal level, public school past the age of 14 was a massive waste of time and money.

iforgotpassword 7y ago
Can second this. 5 years of French, it's even my neighbor country, and I can't have any meaningful conversation. It's been over a decade though. French has always been that thing you had to do for school, there was no motivation or interest in it, especially at that age. Otoh I took a three month crash course in mandarin and could have very simple conversations about the weather, food and family with actual native speakers. Obviously I totally regret how absolutely inefficient I was at learning French because today I agree with what the article touches on: Learning a language is good for your brain, you not only discover structures and ways to express yourself in ways that weren't possible in your mother tongue. You find that some concept is really easy to express in that foreign language but not your own, or vice versa. Words that don't exist in your mother language etc. That is not to say learning other things (like math) doesn't have positive effects on your brain, but the article seems to limit the usefulness of learning a language directly to the utility value of speaking it.