4 ms·

Is it? It seems like the scripting language world is incredibly stagnant these days. Can you name an "up-and-coming" scripting language?

pantalaimon 7y ago
Maybe that's because scripting languages are a bad idea for anything performance critical anyway - and experience has shown that even if things are not performance critical initially, they might become eventually. So why would you write anything in a scripting language only to rewrite it later in a compiled langue, if you could have used an equally capable compiled language in the first place?
- kitotik 7y ago
  Time to market.
- simonh 7y ago
  Performance just isn’t the only, or always the most important factor when choosing a language. Sometimes we choose a language and it’s ecosystem for factors we know we value right now, rather than ones we might value later on.
- KirinDave 7y ago
  > Maybe that's because scripting languages are a bad idea for anything performance critical anyway This is an example of how programming as a discipline and activity is consistently dismissed by the software community as an unnecessary contrivance. "What about absolute performance?" But the reality is you're making tons of those tradeoffs. You're using a compiler, on an instruction set designed for humans, leaning on network stacks that do work for you in generic but sub-optimal ways, using container systems that introduce huge performance penalties. Those are socially acceptable to you. They're special in that you think they aren't special. > So why would you write anything in a scripting language only to rewrite it later in a compiled langue, if you could have used an equally capable compiled language in the first place? This assumes they are in fact equally capable. Please don't retort with Turing completeness. That's a copout and we all know you aren't about to go shipping things in BF.
- nrdvana 7y ago
  Or they go the other way, after an initial assumption that the task was performance-critical when in fact a scripting language was perfectly capable and took 1/10 the effort to write. https://opensource.com/article/18/1/my-delorean-runs-perl https://opensource.com/article/18/1/my-delorean-runs-perl
riffraff 7y ago
Elixir? Anyway, I'd argue competition is tougher not because there are more competitors (there might be, I don't know) but because they have advanced. Compared to 15 years ago, Python has gained a lot of stuff, JavaScript has become an ok language with very fast implementations, there's a dozen funcional scripting languages targeting browsers, optional typing has made a comeback, Ruby has native threads and a decent vm and a large ecosystem, Go is a valid solution for things were you might have used a scripting language, lua owns the embedded space and luajit is the state of the art etc. In 1998 it was enough to have closures and objects to be a potential perl replacement.
- KirinDave 7y ago
  Python has gained barely anything at the interpreter and language level, tho?
  - zephyrfalcon 7y ago
    Mmh, depends on when you start to count. I still consider 1.5.2 the gold standard for Python -- but I am weird. :) Anyway, since then it has gained new-style classes (which gave explicit methods to things like strings, tuples and numbers), list comprehensions, generators (which also gained some changes over time like 'yield from'), generator comprehensions, built-in sets with new syntax, dictionary comprehensions, decorators, descriptors, properties, context managers and the 'with' keyword, absolute vs relative imports (again with new syntax), import hooks, a boolean type, extended slices, a ternary if, ordered dictionaries, async/await, extended tuple/list unpacking, the @ operator, several new ways of string formatting, ... And of course 3.x brought major changes to the way Unicode was handled. Never mind those, um, interesting type hints and the upcoming := operator. Python as it is now, is a very different language than it was in those days. Even ignoring the whole ecosystem with libraries and package management etc, and standard library changes, it's just a much bigger language.
- b2gills 7y ago
  In 1998 you would definitely need closures and objects to replace Perl, since Perl has had both since 1994. I was using closures to great effect in Perl before I even knew what a closure was. (Are closures supposed to be a difficult or extraordinary feature?) I really find it funny when other languages do things that Perl has already been doing for years. Go2 is basically copying the way Perl5 has been advancing without breaking backward compatibility. (They don't seem to realize this.) JavaScript copied use strict. PowerShell copied $_. Everybody copied Perl extensions to regular expressions. (I can't wait for them to copy the cleaned-up, easier and more powerful Perl6 regular expression syntax.) Every feature that I've heard that Python3 changes directly correlates with a similar change that has happened in Perl5. (Only Perl5 has done them in a way to reduce breaking your old code.) Those are just a few of the the ones I know of. Perl has been a far more influential language than anyone gives it credit for. Though that is probably because they just use the feature without knowing the history of it. Eventually Perl6 will be just as influential. --- I agree that optional typing is good, I use it everyday in Perl6. (And have been for nearly ten years.)
vorg 7y ago
Scripting languages were to the 200x's what visual 4GL's were to the 1990's, i.e. a whole bunch of them came and went, and only a few gained mass adoption, perhaps 4GL's Visual Basic and Delphi, and scripting languages Javascript and Python. The rest are dead, or slowly dying.
zephyrfalcon 7y ago
Red, sort of kind of. I have been thinking that there might be room nowadays for a new language that is unabashedly a "scripting language"... something you can easily write scripts with, but which doesn't necessarily aspire to scale real far beyond that, so people will not immediately reach for it to write, say, 250K-line web applications. :3 (Then again, if a language is good/useful/flexible enough, people will use it for everything.) Anyway, I would like to see such a language. The old stalwarts will probably still work just fine for this purpose, but I am curious to see if there's any innovation left/possible in this particular space.
- KirinDave 7y ago
  I have one I'd _like_ to see in a very limited domain: Dhall. Dhall is amazing. But it's domain is very limited.
cutler 7y ago
Julia
- KirinDave 7y ago
  Is it a scripting language? I suppose so! Good answer!
  - cutler 7y ago
    Well, it's both really. That's what makes it special.

pantalaimon 7y ago

Maybe that's because scripting languages are a bad idea for anything performance critical anyway - and experience has shown that even if things are not performance critical initially, they might become eventually. So why would you write anything in a scripting language only to rewrite it later in a compiled langue, if you could have used an equally capable compiled language in the first place?

kitotik 7y ago
Time to market.
simonh 7y ago
Performance just isn’t the only, or always the most important factor when choosing a language. Sometimes we choose a language and it’s ecosystem for factors we know we value right now, rather than ones we might value later on.
KirinDave 7y ago
> Maybe that's because scripting languages are a bad idea for anything performance critical anyway This is an example of how programming as a discipline and activity is consistently dismissed by the software community as an unnecessary contrivance. "What about absolute performance?" But the reality is you're making tons of those tradeoffs. You're using a compiler, on an instruction set designed for humans, leaning on network stacks that do work for you in generic but sub-optimal ways, using container systems that introduce huge performance penalties. Those are socially acceptable to you. They're special in that you think they aren't special. > So why would you write anything in a scripting language only to rewrite it later in a compiled langue, if you could have used an equally capable compiled language in the first place? This assumes they are in fact equally capable. Please don't retort with Turing completeness. That's a copout and we all know you aren't about to go shipping things in BF.
nrdvana 7y ago
Or they go the other way, after an initial assumption that the task was performance-critical when in fact a scripting language was perfectly capable and took 1/10 the effort to write. https://opensource.com/article/18/1/my-delorean-runs-perl https://opensource.com/article/18/1/my-delorean-runs-perl

riffraff 7y ago

Elixir? Anyway, I'd argue competition is tougher not because there are more competitors (there might be, I don't know) but because they have advanced. Compared to 15 years ago, Python has gained a lot of stuff, JavaScript has become an ok language with very fast implementations, there's a dozen funcional scripting languages targeting browsers, optional typing has made a comeback, Ruby has native threads and a decent vm and a large ecosystem, Go is a valid solution for things were you might have used a scripting language, lua owns the embedded space and luajit is the state of the art etc. In 1998 it was enough to have closures and objects to be a potential perl replacement.

KirinDave 7y ago
Python has gained barely anything at the interpreter and language level, tho?
- zephyrfalcon 7y ago
  Mmh, depends on when you start to count. I still consider 1.5.2 the gold standard for Python -- but I am weird. :) Anyway, since then it has gained new-style classes (which gave explicit methods to things like strings, tuples and numbers), list comprehensions, generators (which also gained some changes over time like 'yield from'), generator comprehensions, built-in sets with new syntax, dictionary comprehensions, decorators, descriptors, properties, context managers and the 'with' keyword, absolute vs relative imports (again with new syntax), import hooks, a boolean type, extended slices, a ternary if, ordered dictionaries, async/await, extended tuple/list unpacking, the @ operator, several new ways of string formatting, ... And of course 3.x brought major changes to the way Unicode was handled. Never mind those, um, interesting type hints and the upcoming := operator. Python as it is now, is a very different language than it was in those days. Even ignoring the whole ecosystem with libraries and package management etc, and standard library changes, it's just a much bigger language.
b2gills 7y ago
In 1998 you would definitely need closures and objects to replace Perl, since Perl has had both since 1994. I was using closures to great effect in Perl before I even knew what a closure was. (Are closures supposed to be a difficult or extraordinary feature?) I really find it funny when other languages do things that Perl has already been doing for years. Go2 is basically copying the way Perl5 has been advancing without breaking backward compatibility. (They don't seem to realize this.) JavaScript copied use strict. PowerShell copied $_. Everybody copied Perl extensions to regular expressions. (I can't wait for them to copy the cleaned-up, easier and more powerful Perl6 regular expression syntax.) Every feature that I've heard that Python3 changes directly correlates with a similar change that has happened in Perl5. (Only Perl5 has done them in a way to reduce breaking your old code.) Those are just a few of the the ones I know of. Perl has been a far more influential language than anyone gives it credit for. Though that is probably because they just use the feature without knowing the history of it. Eventually Perl6 will be just as influential. --- I agree that optional typing is good, I use it everyday in Perl6. (And have been for nearly ten years.)

vorg 7y ago

Scripting languages were to the 200x's what visual 4GL's were to the 1990's, i.e. a whole bunch of them came and went, and only a few gained mass adoption, perhaps 4GL's Visual Basic and Delphi, and scripting languages Javascript and Python. The rest are dead, or slowly dying.

zephyrfalcon 7y ago

Red, sort of kind of. I have been thinking that there might be room nowadays for a new language that is unabashedly a "scripting language"... something you can easily write scripts with, but which doesn't necessarily aspire to scale real far beyond that, so people will not immediately reach for it to write, say, 250K-line web applications. :3 (Then again, if a language is good/useful/flexible enough, people will use it for everything.) Anyway, I would like to see such a language. The old stalwarts will probably still work just fine for this purpose, but I am curious to see if there's any innovation left/possible in this particular space.

KirinDave 7y ago
I have one I'd _like_ to see in a very limited domain: Dhall. Dhall is amazing. But it's domain is very limited.

cutler 7y ago

Julia

KirinDave 7y ago
Is it a scripting language? I suppose so! Good answer!
- cutler 7y ago
  Well, it's both really. That's what makes it special.