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In San Diego, there is a camp called Outpost Summer Camp that is exactly this. This has also made me post-Montessori. I’ve left the faith, but we’ve found the

by dfee 7y ago

In San Diego, there is a camp called Outpost Summer Camp that is exactly this. This has also made me post-Montessori. I’ve left the faith, but we’ve found the forest.

em-bee 7y ago
can you elaborate on post-montessori please? how does that look like to you?
- dfee 7y ago
  I loved the idea of Montessori, and it’s an issue I raised in open discussion at one of the school’s group chats. Basically, in principle it’s great. Children drive themselves and follow what they’re passionate about (with a teacher’s encouragement). If they’ve got a tendency for math, for example, the teacher helps them develop their own intuitions and keeps those pathways open for them. In practice, my son believed there was a limit on his abilities to develop because children under 4 years and zero days weren’t allowed to begin learning numbers (or those stations weren’t available to him). You see, it’s still cohort based learning, where cohort is based on age not ability. So he knew numbers from home, but believed at school he was incapable. It was a strange sort of cognitive dissonance where he could only “count to twenty” as reinforced by his classmates, because he wasn’t old enough to do the number station. And yet, he didn’t realize that meant he wasn’t able to say the numbers greater than 20 - but often times he’d go from 1-200, etc. Math wasn’t the only topic where this happened unfortunately. This was at one of the few fully certified Montessori programs in San Diego. I believe that it was a better program than a median program, but I’m not sure if it’s because his peers came from families who could afford to spend time with their children, or if the program itself was better than median. However, it’s a different model that definitely did not address my root concern - assisting a child to advance at their own pace (faster or slower). Which just means that my expectations were mismanaged. Overall, I think the forest kindergarten concept is more rewarding for my kid, and he’s at least happy going to and coming home from school. That’s an oft overlooked part of schooling: ensuring your child isn’t miserable - and there’s quite a bit of misery at Montessori, due to the focus on quiet, individual work.
  - em-bee 7y ago
    children under 4 years and zero days weren’t allowed to begin learning numbers ouch. someone hasn't been paying attention in their training. there is no hard date to introduce any activity. if children are interested in an activity, they are introduced to it. or to a simpler one that leads up to it. applying a hard date shows lack of understanding of the different speed of childrens development. if it's not to late i'd read up a bit on the montessori method and confront the teachers about it. they are clearly doing it wrong. i'd also check who certified that school, or where the teachers were trained. unfortunately, the montessori name is not protected, and anyone school can claim to be montessori, even if they are not.
  - watwut 7y ago
    The montessory materials I read were not about following passion. It was rather that kids could choose order in which they did educational activities during dat - but in the end all the kids did the same ones. It is more about illusion of control and freedom within limited bounds.
    - em-bee 7y ago
      it's the freedom to choose within the available options (that is the world as you know it). as kids get older the options expand, and hence learning to make those choices as opposed to taking what is fed to you is really the most important part. dfee's son was denied that choice, and hence the effect that montessori is supposed to have may not take hold.
      - watwut 7y ago
        The kid was under 4. And montessory as original philosophy really was not about learning to make educational choices. Montessory was designed for troubles boys originally. The effect it was supposed to have was that the kids that fail get some order and controll at the same time and build good working habits. It worked for non troubled kids too and had good results, but it was not designed to push kids fast forward.
  - barry-cotter 7y ago

by dfee 7y ago

In San Diego, there is a camp called Outpost Summer Camp that is exactly this. This has also made me post-Montessori. I’ve left the faith, but we’ve found the forest.

em-bee 7y ago

can you elaborate on post-montessori please? how does that look like to you?

dfee 7y ago
I loved the idea of Montessori, and it’s an issue I raised in open discussion at one of the school’s group chats. Basically, in principle it’s great. Children drive themselves and follow what they’re passionate about (with a teacher’s encouragement). If they’ve got a tendency for math, for example, the teacher helps them develop their own intuitions and keeps those pathways open for them. In practice, my son believed there was a limit on his abilities to develop because children under 4 years and zero days weren’t allowed to begin learning numbers (or those stations weren’t available to him). You see, it’s still cohort based learning, where cohort is based on age not ability. So he knew numbers from home, but believed at school he was incapable. It was a strange sort of cognitive dissonance where he could only “count to twenty” as reinforced by his classmates, because he wasn’t old enough to do the number station. And yet, he didn’t realize that meant he wasn’t able to say the numbers greater than 20 - but often times he’d go from 1-200, etc. Math wasn’t the only topic where this happened unfortunately. This was at one of the few fully certified Montessori programs in San Diego. I believe that it was a better program than a median program, but I’m not sure if it’s because his peers came from families who could afford to spend time with their children, or if the program itself was better than median. However, it’s a different model that definitely did not address my root concern - assisting a child to advance at their own pace (faster or slower). Which just means that my expectations were mismanaged. Overall, I think the forest kindergarten concept is more rewarding for my kid, and he’s at least happy going to and coming home from school. That’s an oft overlooked part of schooling: ensuring your child isn’t miserable - and there’s quite a bit of misery at Montessori, due to the focus on quiet, individual work.
- em-bee 7y ago
  children under 4 years and zero days weren’t allowed to begin learning numbers ouch. someone hasn't been paying attention in their training. there is no hard date to introduce any activity. if children are interested in an activity, they are introduced to it. or to a simpler one that leads up to it. applying a hard date shows lack of understanding of the different speed of childrens development. if it's not to late i'd read up a bit on the montessori method and confront the teachers about it. they are clearly doing it wrong. i'd also check who certified that school, or where the teachers were trained. unfortunately, the montessori name is not protected, and anyone school can claim to be montessori, even if they are not.
- watwut 7y ago
  The montessory materials I read were not about following passion. It was rather that kids could choose order in which they did educational activities during dat - but in the end all the kids did the same ones. It is more about illusion of control and freedom within limited bounds.
  - em-bee 7y ago
    it's the freedom to choose within the available options (that is the world as you know it). as kids get older the options expand, and hence learning to make those choices as opposed to taking what is fed to you is really the most important part. dfee's son was denied that choice, and hence the effect that montessori is supposed to have may not take hold.
    - watwut 7y ago
      The kid was under 4. And montessory as original philosophy really was not about learning to make educational choices. Montessory was designed for troubles boys originally. The effect it was supposed to have was that the kids that fail get some order and controll at the same time and build good working habits. It worked for non troubled kids too and had good results, but it was not designed to push kids fast forward.
- barry-cotter 7y ago