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> Ancient Athenian democracy devised two institutions that fleshed out this vision. First, sortition: the appointment of public officials by lot. Given the fund
by ThrowawayR2 7y ago
> Ancient Athenian democracy devised two institutions that fleshed out this vision. First, sortition: the appointment of public officials by lot. Given the fundamental equality of rights that all Athenian citizens — that is, free male adults — enjoyed, the most logical means of access to positions of leadership was random selection.
There's an interesting unstated implication here: that all members of Athenian democracy were willing to shoulder their responsibilities to the state and, more importantly, all possessed the knowledge and qualifications to conduct the management of the state. Contrast this with modern democracies where both the wise and the foolish each get one vote on any issue, regardless of whether they possess sufficient understanding to have a valid opinion. It does sound like madness, doesn't it?
- mikeash 7y agoIt does sound like madness, but any alternative effectively tells the foolish that if they don’t like how things are going then their only choice is to get out the torches and pitchforks.
- RobertoG 7y agoI think you are right. It seems to me that the strength of representative democracy doesn't come from be able to choose who will be the leader, but from the possibility of removing that leader from power in a peaceful way. Looking to history we can see how extraordinary that is.
- mikeash 7y agoRight, this is the weird thing about it. A democracy that has been captured by a few powerful groups is still 90% as good as one that hasn’t, as long as the people still believe that peaceful change is possible.
- ThrowawayR2 7y agoMany would say that inaction on environmental issues and climate change, to pick an example, by the foolish is already driving the populace toward annihilation. I'm not sure that's really any different a result than the torches and pitchforks.
- kwevieenoloiden 7y agoAction on climate change would impoverish already poor. So the rich liberals can feel better.
- buboard 7y agoI'm sure many athenians were pretty bad at them and foolish, yet they were not excluded (they did have moral character exclusion laws). That's actually the beauty of sortition in democracy: you need state institutions so well built, that the foolishness of a number of people cannot break it.
- voidhorse 7y agoGreat observation, I cannot recall where I read it at the moment, but I remember reading someone arguing precisely a difference in the individuals relationship to the state is why Athenian democracy seemed to succeed in areas that modern democracy seems to fail. From what I understand, to be an Athenian participating in statecraft meant you’d be willing to go so far as to more or less die for the polis and would always put the needs of the polis before your own. There are a couple of anecdotes about prominent Athenians sacrificing their own gain for the sake of the betterment of Athens. Contrarily, our times are so staunchly individualist I expect that the majority of politicians are not willing to sacrifice much and see their role as little more than a professional occupation—not as an existential gamble for the sake of their constituents.
- kwevieenoloiden 7y agoDemocracy in Athens failed because the polis votes to much for themselves. The politicians kept in power by pleasing their constituencies with free stuff. And neglected to maintain an army and navy.