6 ms·

The '25%' number is a red herring and not worth debating. The US has over 6 times the number of inmates (per capita) as the average Western European country[1][

The '25%' number is a red herring and not worth debating. The US has over 6 times the number of inmates (per capita) as the average Western European country[1][2]. How could that be, other than because of a seriously fubared justice system? [1] http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_pri_per_cap-crime-prisoners-per-capita http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_pri_per_cap-crime-pris... [2] http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/r234.pdf http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/r234.pdf

philwelch 16y ago
It could be because of higher crime than the average Western European country. Imprisonment is a lagging indicator, of course, so the US crime rate would have to have been higher than the average Western European crime rate 10, 20, 30 years ago, rather than today necessarily.
- Confusion 16y ago
  Well, for instance[1] shows that the violent crime rate has been 2.5 to 3.5 times as large as in Canada between 1980 and 2000. That still leaves a factor of 2 to be explained. The other statistics in this report only makes the difference in incarceration rate harder to explain. The most common explanation I have heard is that in the US, people that are accused are both prosecuted and convicted more often. It seems extremely doubtful that the US police force and justice system could be twice as effective as that of other Western European countries. [1]http://dsp-psd.pwgsc.gc.ca/Collection-R/Statcan/85-002.../0110185-002-XIE.pdf http://dsp-psd.pwgsc.gc.ca/Collection-R/Statcan/85-002.../01...
  - philwelch 16y ago
    I'm more than willing to let that factor of 2 come down to a fubared justice system--or possibly to longer prison sentences, which is possibly a "works as designed" type of bug. Big complex problems have big and complex sets of causes. Higher actual crime is not an outlandish partial cause of a higher prison population, even if it isn't a complete explanation.
- maxklein 16y ago
  A factor is that countries like Germany don't imprison first time criminals, but give them probation mostly. And sentences are much, much shorter than in the U.S.
rbanffy 16y ago
> other than because of a seriously fubared justice system? I live in Brazil and I had two cars stolen. None was found, nobody was charged. A couple years back I had my backpack (with my laptop inside) robbed at gunpoint. A friend of mine who lives in the US had his car stolen. It was returned that same afternoon. Another friend of mine had his home completely cleaned up (the thieves left the heavy furniture and the kitchen). All his stuff was returned by the police two days later. The larger inmate population could also be, in some part, due to more efficient law enforcement. That, of course, does not forgive the cops from breaking laws themselves. It's just that the issue is not that black and white.
- cullenking 16y ago
  I had my car broken into in the US, and I knew who did it. It was a friend of a friend (hey, my friends weren't the best back in high school) and they bragged about it. The cops wouldn't take prints when they investigated. When I called up the officer in question after finding out who did it, they said "sorry, we don't aggressively pursue theft". So, your experience in Brazil isn't foreign to Americans. Not all police are created equal, and in a place as big and culturally diverse as the US, you'll get some good ones and some bad ones.
  - rbanffy 16y ago
    Well... That sucks. The US is, indeed, a very diverse place, but I always had the impression that it has a very disciplined, if somewhat tense at times, society. At least the places I visited. My point was that the larger number of inmates in relation to the general population can be, at least in part, attributed to a better law enforcement in relation to other countries. When I was robbed, I could have been shot dead. I am sure the guy would never be caught - if for no other reason, he would have killed one key witness.
- JonnieCache 16y ago
  I hope one day not to have to say this in one of these debates: Anecdotal evidence is not evidence. At all. Not only is it invalid reasoning but it taints the rest of the debate because it often sounds so convincing, going hand in hand as it usually does with appeals to emotion. This applies doubly when discussing macro-level societal issues like the justice system.

philwelch 16y ago

It could be because of higher crime than the average Western European country. Imprisonment is a lagging indicator, of course, so the US crime rate would have to have been higher than the average Western European crime rate 10, 20, 30 years ago, rather than today necessarily.

Confusion 16y ago
Well, for instance[1] shows that the violent crime rate has been 2.5 to 3.5 times as large as in Canada between 1980 and 2000. That still leaves a factor of 2 to be explained. The other statistics in this report only makes the difference in incarceration rate harder to explain. The most common explanation I have heard is that in the US, people that are accused are both prosecuted and convicted more often. It seems extremely doubtful that the US police force and justice system could be twice as effective as that of other Western European countries. [1]http://dsp-psd.pwgsc.gc.ca/Collection-R/Statcan/85-002.../0110185-002-XIE.pdf http://dsp-psd.pwgsc.gc.ca/Collection-R/Statcan/85-002.../01...
- philwelch 16y ago
  I'm more than willing to let that factor of 2 come down to a fubared justice system--or possibly to longer prison sentences, which is possibly a "works as designed" type of bug. Big complex problems have big and complex sets of causes. Higher actual crime is not an outlandish partial cause of a higher prison population, even if it isn't a complete explanation.
maxklein 16y ago
A factor is that countries like Germany don't imprison first time criminals, but give them probation mostly. And sentences are much, much shorter than in the U.S.

rbanffy 16y ago

> other than because of a seriously fubared justice system? I live in Brazil and I had two cars stolen. None was found, nobody was charged. A couple years back I had my backpack (with my laptop inside) robbed at gunpoint. A friend of mine who lives in the US had his car stolen. It was returned that same afternoon. Another friend of mine had his home completely cleaned up (the thieves left the heavy furniture and the kitchen). All his stuff was returned by the police two days later. The larger inmate population could also be, in some part, due to more efficient law enforcement. That, of course, does not forgive the cops from breaking laws themselves. It's just that the issue is not that black and white.

cullenking 16y ago
I had my car broken into in the US, and I knew who did it. It was a friend of a friend (hey, my friends weren't the best back in high school) and they bragged about it. The cops wouldn't take prints when they investigated. When I called up the officer in question after finding out who did it, they said "sorry, we don't aggressively pursue theft". So, your experience in Brazil isn't foreign to Americans. Not all police are created equal, and in a place as big and culturally diverse as the US, you'll get some good ones and some bad ones.
- rbanffy 16y ago
  Well... That sucks. The US is, indeed, a very diverse place, but I always had the impression that it has a very disciplined, if somewhat tense at times, society. At least the places I visited. My point was that the larger number of inmates in relation to the general population can be, at least in part, attributed to a better law enforcement in relation to other countries. When I was robbed, I could have been shot dead. I am sure the guy would never be caught - if for no other reason, he would have killed one key witness.
JonnieCache 16y ago
I hope one day not to have to say this in one of these debates: Anecdotal evidence is not evidence. At all. Not only is it invalid reasoning but it taints the rest of the debate because it often sounds so convincing, going hand in hand as it usually does with appeals to emotion. This applies doubly when discussing macro-level societal issues like the justice system.