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So what? Well, we get to choose which side we allow to spy on us. I mean, I suppose we could make an argument for all people being equal in all equal ways, but

So what? Well, we get to choose which side we allow to spy on us. I mean, I suppose we could make an argument for all people being equal in all equal ways, but don't forget that the each state actor is driven by different sets of morality, politics and even philosophy, or perhaps lack of it. The only conclusion we can derive is that this whole surveillance/spying thing will never stop, everyone does it and will continue to do it. It would be wise to assume that everything is bugged, everything has backdoors, and every hardware vendor has been compromised.

mrtksn 7y ago
What if the "We" is 95% of the world that is not the USA? It's cute that US citizens have some spying issues and some targeted election interference issues but the sympathy is very limited because in many parts of the world they were dealing with this since ever and the USA was the culprit. I think we are approaching a time in history where we are going to actually choose if we are human resources that are to be spied on and controlled by the political class or are we individuals. Choosing the government or agency you are being spied on is a false choice because it assumes that you made the choice to be a human resource and you are to be exploited but you can pick your masters by fighting against your master's competitors. The moral argument is unconvincing given what's happening in the USA with all those immigrant camps and political agenda.
- throwaway8879 7y ago
  I'm from one of the poorest countries on the planet, which is neither politically aligned with the US nor the Chinese, because it isn't geopolitically important enough. Though to be entirely honest, it's aligned with whoever throws money at it. I'm wary of the economic moves the Chinese are making in my part of the world, because they come attached with fat strings, which most people are willing to ignore for said economic benefits. Nations aren't single discrete entities, so everything from individuals to collectives of all sizes within a nation will want to align with the US or the Chinese, depending on money, politics, ideologies, etc. I personally would much rather have the NSA read my emails, not the Chinese. It may be an unfair choice, but it is a choice. > I think we are approaching a time in history where we are going to actually choose if we are human resources that are to be spied on and controlled by the political class or are we individuals. I don't think you are right about this bit. The oppressor/oppressed duality is never going away, because it isn't determined by some kind of social realisation that we could do better as a species. It is determined by our biology and our drive to acquire resources. That kind of change won't happen until our biology changes.
  - mrtksn 7y ago
    Our access and use of resources have changed dramatically. It's no longer true that to have few people living like the kings we need to have a large number of people exploited. Well, maybe we are not exactly there yet but we have come such a long way that we have an incredibly high count of people living very good lives. Many fights of the political elites are more and more about their personal egos than biological or natural necessities of the population they are responsible for. Sure, there are still issues and global risks that may undo our progress but overall we are approaching a future where we are no longer depended on large political institutions but since we have these in place they will continue doing their thing and the risks will be due to fighting between those institutions.

mrtksn 7y ago

What if the "We" is 95% of the world that is not the USA? It's cute that US citizens have some spying issues and some targeted election interference issues but the sympathy is very limited because in many parts of the world they were dealing with this since ever and the USA was the culprit. I think we are approaching a time in history where we are going to actually choose if we are human resources that are to be spied on and controlled by the political class or are we individuals. Choosing the government or agency you are being spied on is a false choice because it assumes that you made the choice to be a human resource and you are to be exploited but you can pick your masters by fighting against your master's competitors. The moral argument is unconvincing given what's happening in the USA with all those immigrant camps and political agenda.

throwaway8879 7y ago
I'm from one of the poorest countries on the planet, which is neither politically aligned with the US nor the Chinese, because it isn't geopolitically important enough. Though to be entirely honest, it's aligned with whoever throws money at it. I'm wary of the economic moves the Chinese are making in my part of the world, because they come attached with fat strings, which most people are willing to ignore for said economic benefits. Nations aren't single discrete entities, so everything from individuals to collectives of all sizes within a nation will want to align with the US or the Chinese, depending on money, politics, ideologies, etc. I personally would much rather have the NSA read my emails, not the Chinese. It may be an unfair choice, but it is a choice. > I think we are approaching a time in history where we are going to actually choose if we are human resources that are to be spied on and controlled by the political class or are we individuals. I don't think you are right about this bit. The oppressor/oppressed duality is never going away, because it isn't determined by some kind of social realisation that we could do better as a species. It is determined by our biology and our drive to acquire resources. That kind of change won't happen until our biology changes.
- mrtksn 7y ago
  Our access and use of resources have changed dramatically. It's no longer true that to have few people living like the kings we need to have a large number of people exploited. Well, maybe we are not exactly there yet but we have come such a long way that we have an incredibly high count of people living very good lives. Many fights of the political elites are more and more about their personal egos than biological or natural necessities of the population they are responsible for. Sure, there are still issues and global risks that may undo our progress but overall we are approaching a future where we are no longer depended on large political institutions but since we have these in place they will continue doing their thing and the risks will be due to fighting between those institutions.