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wild - this thread appears to be brigaded by pro CCP posters

by MiroF 7y ago

fit2rule 7y ago
I think a lot of people are just sick and tired of American hypocrisy. The country that gave us the oppressive 5-eyes regime has not in any way gained moral authority to declare other nations' intelligence agencies involvement in industry to be immoral, or a 'security risk'. Until the NSA is disbanded, there is no security on the Internet. To explain the perspective and avoid the inevitable "you must be a shill for the CCP if you're so anti-America" accusations, I don't live in China, and choose not to, because I am very much against the actions of the CCP. But I do live under the imperial shadow of America's decisions to usurp sovereignty and privacy around the world - I did not choose to be subject to this oppression. I, like so many enlightened individuals who make up this community, am extremely opposed to America's usurpation of the technologies that held so much promise for peace. American hegemony over the tools of peace in order that it can maintain its power is one of the worst circumstances of the modern world. I'd like to see ALL telecom companies swept clean of ALL repressive spooks who once served their nations intelligence agencies and can therefore never be trusted with the open communication lines of the world.
- imiric 7y ago
  Mostly agree with you, but on your last point, you wouldn't consider that ex-intelligence people might not be related to their respective agencies anymore, and that they abandonded them because they stopped believing in their cause or for another legitimate reason? Choosing to distrust them for life because of their past experience would be to ignore their talent and skill, which are very valuable in the private sector.
  - fit2rule 7y ago
    No doubt, subterfuge and intrigue are valuable skills in the private sector, but I really do think that people distrusting a person for life is one of the liabilities that must be borne when a person decides to work for a clandestine agency - especially one that has a long history of covert usurpation of institutions for its own purposes. Intelligence agencies cannot, ever, be trusted by private citizens. The corruption of government begins with its secrets. That's the nature of the job, and its one of the reasons why there is a very strong motto prevalent in the spook industry: "you can never leave the company".
est 7y ago
I've seen too many Chinese pro-CCP posters, they have the exact same logic like you. Any Chinese likes USA must be a traitor aka 汉奸. If you like Google, you are a pro-USA traitor. Use cracked Windows because Microsoft is destroying Chinese OSs, Apple is spying on Chinese on behalf of US interests, don't use Cisco routers because it's backdoored by the CIA, etc.
bildung 7y ago
> wild - this thread appears to be brigaded by pro CCP posters Is it so hard to believe that people not in agreement with you have actual reasons for that?
- ThrowawayR2 7y ago
  > Is it so hard to believe that people not in agreement with you have actual reasons for that? When people are saying that the US is a bad actor on the same level as China, yes, that should be extremely hard to believe for anyone with a reasonable knowledge of current events.
  - iihttfeer 7y ago
    Maybe the posters are from the Middle East?
zxcmx 7y ago
You can be skeptical of the narrative without being pro CCP. The Huawei “backdoors” everyone made a fuss about were neither worse nor better than the dozens of bugs and backdoors in every other brand that have been found over the years. Mostly typical of poor SDLC of companies that primarily do hardware not software. Any large company is going to employ people who have served in various security services just by law of large numbers. For stuff like Telecom you also actively need people experienced with gov security standards to help you comply with them! Former experience with an agency can be super helpful with this. At least thats why several companies I’ve worked for (in FVEY countries) have hired from services - not so much for skills or connections but because they understand the compliance and certification processes. Not sure if people realise there are probably 50 Word, Powerpoint and compliance jockeys for every TAO operative in those places. I’m ok with the Huawei ban tbh but much of the press surrounding it seems bunk to me, frankly. I think I can recognise propaganda when I see it, at least when it relates to my field.
dtornabene 7y ago
no, its just an absolutely bonkers thread. The idea that Huwawei is some kind of shocking threat that needs to be fought because chinese spooks work there is embarrassing. American spooks and ex-spooks dominate in US communications technology firms. I'm an american, born and bred in Texas. I have no love, whatsoever for the CCP, but its a gross orientalist obsession to see China as somehow singularly malevolent.
the-dude 7y ago
The fearmongering strongly reminds me of weapons of mass destruction.
draw_down 7y ago
Come on.
dang 7y ago
This comment breaks the site guidelines. Would you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and follow them when posting here? When people's views are divided, internet readers are a million times too quick to assume that the other side is brigading, shilling, spying, astroturfing, promoting secret agendas, fifth-columning, foreign-agenting, or (this seems to be the latest favorite word) disingenuous—even when they have zero basis for thinking so. (Someone representing an opposing view is no basis for thinking so.) This is a cognitive bias. It leads people to imagine nefariousness and project it onto other users. That poisons the community—and this poison is actually the bigger problem by far. We've even seen individual users singled out for attack merely for a different point of view. In the limit case it even approaches mob behavior. Therefore all HN users are expected to have the self-restraint to rein in this impulse, most of all on paranoia-prone topics like spies hiding things in technology, nations planting foreign agents, and all the rest of this. Yes, these are things; and internet commenters imagining them is also a thing. Here are a few of the other explanations I've posted about this. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20239719 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20239719 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20199254 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20199254 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19862158 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19862158 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19404162 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19404162 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19402447 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19402447 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16632589 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16632589 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16532039 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16532039 https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=false&page=0&query=by:dang%20astroturfing https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...
- danskeren 7y ago
  It's really not. If you spent 10 minutes on HN Algolia and looked through all threads that reference China in the title (e.g. https://hn.algolia.com/?query=china&sort=byPopularity&prefix&page=0&dateRange=pastMonth&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?query=china&sort=byPopularity&prefix...), and then visited the comment section of any thread that had no relation to USA (e.g. "WeChat is Watching: Living in China with the app that knows everything about me", "Report on forced organ harvesting in China", etc.) then you'll always find Chinese nationalists/shills resorting to US whataboutism.. You can try to do the same with any other country, and you won't see this trend. It's also very common for threads that are negative towards China to quickly disappear from the frontpage for no reason despite just recently appearing, or even being at the first position. An example from a few days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20336543 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20336543. I really don't understand how you can deny this.

wild - this thread appears to be brigaded by pro CCP posters

by MiroF 7y ago

wild - this thread appears to be brigaded by pro CCP posters

I think a lot of people are just sick and tired of American hypocrisy. The country that gave us the oppressive 5-eyes regime has not in any way gained moral authority to declare other nations' intelligence agencies involvement in industry to be immoral, or a 'security risk'. Until the NSA is disbanded, there is no security on the Internet. To explain the perspective and avoid the inevitable "you must be a shill for the CCP if you're so anti-America" accusations, I don't live in China, and choose not to, because I am very much against the actions of the CCP. But I do live under the imperial shadow of America's decisions to usurp sovereignty and privacy around the world - I did not choose to be subject to this oppression. I, like so many enlightened individuals who make up this community, am extremely opposed to America's usurpation of the technologies that held so much promise for peace. American hegemony over the tools of peace in order that it can maintain its power is one of the worst circumstances of the modern world. I'd like to see ALL telecom companies swept clean of ALL repressive spooks who once served their nations intelligence agencies and can therefore never be trusted with the open communication lines of the world.

imiric 7y ago
Mostly agree with you, but on your last point, you wouldn't consider that ex-intelligence people might not be related to their respective agencies anymore, and that they abandonded them because they stopped believing in their cause or for another legitimate reason? Choosing to distrust them for life because of their past experience would be to ignore their talent and skill, which are very valuable in the private sector.
- fit2rule 7y ago
  No doubt, subterfuge and intrigue are valuable skills in the private sector, but I really do think that people distrusting a person for life is one of the liabilities that must be borne when a person decides to work for a clandestine agency - especially one that has a long history of covert usurpation of institutions for its own purposes. Intelligence agencies cannot, ever, be trusted by private citizens. The corruption of government begins with its secrets. That's the nature of the job, and its one of the reasons why there is a very strong motto prevalent in the spook industry: "you can never leave the company".

est 7y ago

I've seen too many Chinese pro-CCP posters, they have the exact same logic like you. Any Chinese likes USA must be a traitor aka 汉奸. If you like Google, you are a pro-USA traitor. Use cracked Windows because Microsoft is destroying Chinese OSs, Apple is spying on Chinese on behalf of US interests, don't use Cisco routers because it's backdoored by the CIA, etc.

bildung 7y ago

> wild - this thread appears to be brigaded by pro CCP posters Is it so hard to believe that people not in agreement with you have actual reasons for that?

ThrowawayR2 7y ago
> Is it so hard to believe that people not in agreement with you have actual reasons for that? When people are saying that the US is a bad actor on the same level as China, yes, that should be extremely hard to believe for anyone with a reasonable knowledge of current events.
- iihttfeer 7y ago
  Maybe the posters are from the Middle East?

zxcmx 7y ago

You can be skeptical of the narrative without being pro CCP. The Huawei “backdoors” everyone made a fuss about were neither worse nor better than the dozens of bugs and backdoors in every other brand that have been found over the years. Mostly typical of poor SDLC of companies that primarily do hardware not software. Any large company is going to employ people who have served in various security services just by law of large numbers. For stuff like Telecom you also actively need people experienced with gov security standards to help you comply with them! Former experience with an agency can be super helpful with this. At least thats why several companies I’ve worked for (in FVEY countries) have hired from services - not so much for skills or connections but because they understand the compliance and certification processes. Not sure if people realise there are probably 50 Word, Powerpoint and compliance jockeys for every TAO operative in those places. I’m ok with the Huawei ban tbh but much of the press surrounding it seems bunk to me, frankly. I think I can recognise propaganda when I see it, at least when it relates to my field.

dtornabene 7y ago

no, its just an absolutely bonkers thread. The idea that Huwawei is some kind of shocking threat that needs to be fought because chinese spooks work there is embarrassing. American spooks and ex-spooks dominate in US communications technology firms. I'm an american, born and bred in Texas. I have no love, whatsoever for the CCP, but its a gross orientalist obsession to see China as somehow singularly malevolent.

the-dude 7y ago

The fearmongering strongly reminds me of weapons of mass destruction.

draw_down 7y ago

Come on.

dang 7y ago

This comment breaks the site guidelines. Would you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and follow them when posting here? When people's views are divided, internet readers are a million times too quick to assume that the other side is brigading, shilling, spying, astroturfing, promoting secret agendas, fifth-columning, foreign-agenting, or (this seems to be the latest favorite word) disingenuous—even when they have zero basis for thinking so. (Someone representing an opposing view is no basis for thinking so.) This is a cognitive bias. It leads people to imagine nefariousness and project it onto other users. That poisons the community—and this poison is actually the bigger problem by far. We've even seen individual users singled out for attack merely for a different point of view. In the limit case it even approaches mob behavior. Therefore all HN users are expected to have the self-restraint to rein in this impulse, most of all on paranoia-prone topics like spies hiding things in technology, nations planting foreign agents, and all the rest of this. Yes, these are things; and internet commenters imagining them is also a thing. Here are a few of the other explanations I've posted about this. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20239719 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20239719 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20199254 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20199254 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19862158 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19862158 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19404162 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19404162 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19402447 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19402447 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16632589 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16632589 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16532039 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16532039 https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=false&page=0&query=by:dang%20astroturfing https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...

danskeren 7y ago
It's really not. If you spent 10 minutes on HN Algolia and looked through all threads that reference China in the title (e.g. https://hn.algolia.com/?query=china&sort=byPopularity&prefix&page=0&dateRange=pastMonth&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?query=china&sort=byPopularity&prefix...), and then visited the comment section of any thread that had no relation to USA (e.g. "WeChat is Watching: Living in China with the app that knows everything about me", "Report on forced organ harvesting in China", etc.) then you'll always find Chinese nationalists/shills resorting to US whataboutism.. You can try to do the same with any other country, and you won't see this trend. It's also very common for threads that are negative towards China to quickly disappear from the frontpage for no reason despite just recently appearing, or even being at the first position. An example from a few days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20336543 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20336543. I really don't understand how you can deny this.