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I don't understand why we can't apply what he seems to suggest (treating governments and politics in a smart efficient manner) without navigating the high seas

by kloncks 16y ago

I don't understand why we can't apply what he seems to suggest (treating governments and politics in a smart efficient manner) without navigating the high seas and creating new land. That's just giving up on all the land we already have. That, for a starter, seems pretty defeating. edit: We keep on forgetting that our government (the US) was created on purpose to be very slow but ultimately fair. That's the inefficiency, yet it's still a great place for startups. That, coupled with our 300m citizens, makes something like this harder to do in a country like this. That's why we haven't been too successful in creating startup communities outside of 2 or 3 places in the entire United States. Yet, this can work in a lot of places. Or, rather, we can try to start applying it in a lot of places. Smaller places that have seen similar successes. I'm thinking Dubai, Israel, etc.

olalonde 16y ago
I think you missed the point of the article. The ultimate goal is not to create startup communities but to create governments that are ran as startups.
- arethuza 16y ago
  Most startups fail - when a company fails people pick themselves up and go and do other things, generally a bit wiser for the experience. History suggests that when countries fail, or at least when the machinery of civil society fails, things can get very unpleasant.
  - stcredzero 16y ago
    I suspect that this may be merely a problem of granularity. Countries have been located on a permanent continuum, not on many discrete little movable platforms. If a seasteading nation failed, the pieces would just get sold off and towed away to simplest that is civilized.
    - gbhn 16y ago
      Just like Yugoslavia? It isn't that simple. Guns come out when sovereignty gets threatened in this way, especially if things have deteriorated to the point that lots of people want to leave.
      - stcredzero 16y ago
        Yes, but before, you couldn't tow your land away. Borders don't work quite the same way. Sure, you can bring out the AK-47s, but then you're going to get in the Zodiac with your cronies and motor over to...a reinforced concrete platform 60' above the water...and those guys have AK's too and you have to climb a ladder up to the platform? I don't think it's quite the same deal.
kkowalczyk 16y ago
Because of legacy and backwards compatibility problems. It's like, when you have a database engine written in Cobol and you're asked to improve it by implementing latest ideas in database technology, sometimes that code base is written in such a fundamentally broken way that a better solution is to write it in C. The problem with improving current system is that the system has all the power and will resist change. The people who can change the system are people who're benefiting from the system being what it is. It's not like there aren't people aware of the problem and trying to change it (see Lessig) but they are not having much success. The laws are created by Congress and many see corruption of Congress as the main problem and Congress will not vote itself from the island any more than Kim Jong-Il will. Which is why the only realistic way to really experiment with new governance systems, especially ones with radical ideas, is to start from scratch.
arethuza 16y ago
I'm not sure the experiences of Dubai or Israel are what I would want to emulate if I were starting a new country.
- nivertech 16y ago
  I agree, Dubai is unsustainable and Israel is surrounded by non-friendly neighbors. I wander how far advanced Israel would be now, if it was located in a better neighborhood. 2-3 years of live of every citizen could be invested into something much much better, than army service.
  - meterplech 16y ago
    Have you read Startup Nation?(1) It talks about why Israel is the country with the most startups per capita in the world. Israel also has the more companies on NASDAQ than all of Europe combined. One of the main reasons the authors cite is Israeli teenagers all go to the army. The entire Israeli military culture is based on individual resourcefulness and improvisation. They get experience in leadership and technical skills that almost no American teenager gets at their age. Further, instead of being saddled with hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt for this training they come away with no debt. tl;dr I think the Israeli army if anything is a massive contribution to the success of their innovation economy. (1) http://www.amazon.com/Start-up-Nation-Israels-Economic-Miracle/dp/044654146X http://www.amazon.com/Start-up-Nation-Israels-Economic-Mirac...
    - nivertech 16y ago
      It's debatable. "Startup Nation" is an excellent PR book, but nothing more. For the real state of affair read "Hummus Manifesto" [1]. The fact is, that Jewish peers outside Israel has more success, than in Israel. It can easily be explained by the fact that they didn't wasted 3 most productive years of their lives to the army service. The Jewish population in Israel is more a less of the same size as Jewish population in US. Yet Sergey Brin, Larry Page and Mark Zuckerberg were generated not in Israel, but in US. If their families had immigrated to Israel and they had spent 3 years in the IDF, I doubt Google and Facebook existed today. [1] http://sixkidsandafulltimejob.blogspot.com/2010/07/hummus-manifesto-part-1.html http://sixkidsandafulltimejob.blogspot.com/2010/07/hummus-ma...
KleinmanB 16y ago
Ok, raise your hand if you want to give your land. Italy, did I see you raise your hand? "No I had an itch."

by kloncks 16y ago

olalonde 16y ago

I think you missed the point of the article. The ultimate goal is not to create startup communities but to create governments that are ran as startups.

arethuza 16y ago
Most startups fail - when a company fails people pick themselves up and go and do other things, generally a bit wiser for the experience. History suggests that when countries fail, or at least when the machinery of civil society fails, things can get very unpleasant.
- stcredzero 16y ago
  I suspect that this may be merely a problem of granularity. Countries have been located on a permanent continuum, not on many discrete little movable platforms. If a seasteading nation failed, the pieces would just get sold off and towed away to simplest that is civilized.
  - gbhn 16y ago
    Just like Yugoslavia? It isn't that simple. Guns come out when sovereignty gets threatened in this way, especially if things have deteriorated to the point that lots of people want to leave.
    - stcredzero 16y ago
      Yes, but before, you couldn't tow your land away. Borders don't work quite the same way. Sure, you can bring out the AK-47s, but then you're going to get in the Zodiac with your cronies and motor over to...a reinforced concrete platform 60' above the water...and those guys have AK's too and you have to climb a ladder up to the platform? I don't think it's quite the same deal.

kkowalczyk 16y ago

Because of legacy and backwards compatibility problems. It's like, when you have a database engine written in Cobol and you're asked to improve it by implementing latest ideas in database technology, sometimes that code base is written in such a fundamentally broken way that a better solution is to write it in C. The problem with improving current system is that the system has all the power and will resist change. The people who can change the system are people who're benefiting from the system being what it is. It's not like there aren't people aware of the problem and trying to change it (see Lessig) but they are not having much success. The laws are created by Congress and many see corruption of Congress as the main problem and Congress will not vote itself from the island any more than Kim Jong-Il will. Which is why the only realistic way to really experiment with new governance systems, especially ones with radical ideas, is to start from scratch.

arethuza 16y ago

I'm not sure the experiences of Dubai or Israel are what I would want to emulate if I were starting a new country.

nivertech 16y ago
I agree, Dubai is unsustainable and Israel is surrounded by non-friendly neighbors. I wander how far advanced Israel would be now, if it was located in a better neighborhood. 2-3 years of live of every citizen could be invested into something much much better, than army service.
- meterplech 16y ago
  Have you read Startup Nation?(1) It talks about why Israel is the country with the most startups per capita in the world. Israel also has the more companies on NASDAQ than all of Europe combined. One of the main reasons the authors cite is Israeli teenagers all go to the army. The entire Israeli military culture is based on individual resourcefulness and improvisation. They get experience in leadership and technical skills that almost no American teenager gets at their age. Further, instead of being saddled with hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt for this training they come away with no debt. tl;dr I think the Israeli army if anything is a massive contribution to the success of their innovation economy. (1) http://www.amazon.com/Start-up-Nation-Israels-Economic-Miracle/dp/044654146X http://www.amazon.com/Start-up-Nation-Israels-Economic-Mirac...
  - nivertech 16y ago
    It's debatable. "Startup Nation" is an excellent PR book, but nothing more. For the real state of affair read "Hummus Manifesto" [1]. The fact is, that Jewish peers outside Israel has more success, than in Israel. It can easily be explained by the fact that they didn't wasted 3 most productive years of their lives to the army service. The Jewish population in Israel is more a less of the same size as Jewish population in US. Yet Sergey Brin, Larry Page and Mark Zuckerberg were generated not in Israel, but in US. If their families had immigrated to Israel and they had spent 3 years in the IDF, I doubt Google and Facebook existed today. [1] http://sixkidsandafulltimejob.blogspot.com/2010/07/hummus-manifesto-part-1.html http://sixkidsandafulltimejob.blogspot.com/2010/07/hummus-ma...

KleinmanB 16y ago

Ok, raise your hand if you want to give your land. Italy, did I see you raise your hand? "No I had an itch."