4 ms·

I cycle commuted in London in the late 90s and 2000's and we pushed then for two items - to be seen by other road users as real road users (ie not something jus

I cycle commuted in London in the late 90s and 2000's and we pushed then for two items - to be seen by other road users as real road users (ie not something just to be brushed aside) and for dedicated cycle lanes that would improve safety. I started cycle commuting again about a year ago (Boris Bikes) and guess what we have dedicated "cycle superhighways" And the problem it turns out is us cyclists There is always a traffic jam on the dedicated pathway - the blue cycle lane. And so some (usually but not always male) cyclists jump on and off the lane and engage in dangerous overtaking manoeuvres. Worst, is that the blue lane runs along normal roads and so has traffic lights at the same positions - and that I guess 25% of cyclists ignore completely a red light and plough through - and twice I have seen these idiots hit pedestrians and two weeks ago came across the fire brigade washing the blood away We campaigned and rode to be taken as real roads users - and when we got real roads with real traffic light we ignore the real rules of the road Cyclists need to have number plates and fines for breaching traffic laws. sorry.

estsauver 7y ago
I wonder why that is, I see very, very little of that mentality in the Netherlands. There's also a very interesting phenomena where right now in London the people who bike are "Cyclists" where they're much more likely to be enthusiasts, people who want to really go fast, people who have Bicycling as part of their identity. In the Netherlands, it's just a way of getting around and not an ideology. The other contributing factor could be size. London is so much bigger than most Dutch cities. If you're commuting across London, speed probably matters much more to you.
- thekid314 7y ago
  Yeah, many of the cyclists in London wear fancy clothes and ride fast bikes. It's an identity thing. There is an sad/interesting gender gap too because many of the cycle commuters are male. There should be a real push by companies to make cycling more female friendly. That means having easy changing rooms/showers at work and giving women a little more time to get ready in the morning. I love biking in London, going fast to the Aldi and carrying my groceries back on the special bike lanes, but there are still issues to resolve.
  - lifeisstillgood 7y ago
    The gender issue is real - I would put the ratio of female to male cyclists on the commute at about the same as in the software teams at work. Perhaps there is a similar thing going on
- jacquesm 7y ago
  Case in point: tourists. The Dutch cycle a lot but not so much that it becomes a goal in itself. But for tourists it is different: they don't get to do it that often so they will maximize their exposure during the little time they have in NL. Where these worlds collide (for instance: the dunes) it can get pretty annoying with tourists treating the cycling paths much as though they are highways and endangering people with small children with reckless overtaking at ridiculous speeds, and then getting upset when they do not have a clear path. Cycling is all about sharing the space in a nice way. It would be much better if these tourists took their anger home and advocated for better cycling infrastructure in their own countries.
- andor 7y ago
  I don't have the feeling that the mentality of cyclists and car drivers in The Netherlands is different, they just relaxed the situation by giving everyone enough space. I currently work in Utrecht. Walking around the city center, even in pedestrian zones, I need to be careful not to run into a bike. Passive-aggressive close passes are the norm. Last week I saw someone clean glass shards off a bike path. Nice gesture, right? Guess what happened next... a middle-aged lady whizzed by over that path, swearing "get off the bike lane you *#($@!!"
- lifeisstillgood 7y ago
  Speed might matter but so do traffic laws - it is a change of mentality that is needed - that this is not exercise and that the journey takes X minutes so leave early. we all do this for cars in london. we just need to for cycles
- lifeisstillgood 7y ago
  I think that is it - I am (middle aged fat happy) trying to get fitter and 3 miles across London each morning helps. But it's not a race track and it has taken me a long time to accept it for what it is - a commute in traffic, with minor exercise benefits I suspect a lot of people (younger and fitter) don't see it as such. And I get that. A long long time ago when I would cycle in car traffic, I upgraded my bike from an old cheap MTB to a nicer road bike. On the flat I saw a 5 mph increase in my top speed the very next day. And my commute time did not change a bit. It was not how fast I was capable of travelling but how many risks I was prepared to take that decided if I could shave more time off the commute. And this is it - it takes a certain amount of time to cycle a mile on the flat open road. In traffic it takes more time, and only by dialling up the risk-o-meter to 11 can you get it back down to "open flat" time. And that risk-o-meter means other people's blood so it's not acceptable. If I want my exercise then it's running on the pavement and press ups in the park.
_Wintermute 7y ago
Requiring cyclists to have number plates is just going to discourage cycling. It will cost millions to organise, will the DVLA take on this new responsibility? Do scooters count? Roller blades? A 5 year old rolling around their neighbourhood? It will push more people back into their cars resulting in a more unhealthy population running over more pedestrians, and to top it off, motorists have to be registered and that doesn't seem to discourage breaking traffic rules en masse. So basically, costs a lot of money and result in more deaths - for what benefit?
- lifeisstillgood 7y ago
  >>> and that doesn't seem to discourage breaking traffic rules en masse. Seriously I drive and I cycle. I have in twenty years never seen one person jump a queue and take a red light past a line of other stopped cars. I see it daily on a bike. The degree of rule breaking is orders of magnitude greater. And no I don't think it's a waste - although I do think it will take deaths before the impetus grows. I mean I had a valid number plate made in two minutes by a caravan sales person today, the ANPR cameras not only exist but actually are in place on the junctions, and if you really want you can start crowd sourcing it on the most dangerous sections. PS Scooters clearly should not count - they should just be banned and anyone over the age of 30 on one simply jailed for twenty years till they grow up ;-)
jacquesm 7y ago
Ridiculous. Cycling is a means to get around. That a bunch of hipsters now see it as an identity thing is no reason to punish everybody from age 6 up that participates in traffic. And cyclists already get fined for breaching traffic laws (and for endangering themselves or others). What you are describing is a result of a mix of 'militant cyclists' and others that see cycling as a way to set themselves apart from the rest of the crowd as well as an incomplete separation of traffic flows. It has nothing to do with regular cyclists, and chances are that if cycling becomes normalized that the hipsters will move on to skateboards or some other way in which they can differentiate themselves enough to be noticed.
- lifeisstillgood 7y ago
  I don't think it is a question of identity - I think it is plain selfishness and thoughtlessness. The way such behaviour was eradicated in car driving was decades long campaigns to make such behaviour socially unacceptable plus the stick of fines and traffic enforcement. Yes it would be great if cycling becomes normalised and better infrastructure is laid down - but in my view if we waved a magic wand and we had 10x more cyclists tomorrow, then we would have 10x more people behaving as recklessly - there may be some social pressure applied but it's hard to see how whizzing past at 12 mph. Ps I did see someone take this into their own hands and I wish I had got his name - he was cycling along with a megaphone in his hand - and when a pair of idiots whizzed through the lights he was stationary at he raised the megaphone and in the middle of London's rush hour bellowed out "Yes, I'm colour blind too, let's all run red lights!" Now if everyone did that we would have no need for license plates.
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    License plates will make exactly zero difference.
    - lifeisstillgood 7y ago
      I am not so convinced. It's a Good Thing that this is becoming a problem - more cyclists, more dedicated lanes. This is all positive. The fact that we are now seeing cycle traffic jams and cyclists who are a danger to other road users is also a positive - it means we are becoming a significant presence on roads. This also means we need to be treated like all other road users as well. And so fines are likely to modify behaviour. I would say that plates and fines would be part of a wider campaign to reduce the worst behaviour but I still argue it would be a huge positive to treat cycles like other dangerous fast moving transports.
benj111 7y ago
I think part of the problem at the moment is that cyclists have been marginalised so much that the law hasn't really applied to them (example, most traffic lights in the UK don't detect cyclists, there was at one little used junction on a prior commute that I had to jump the lights on, because the lights never changed in my favour). I would hope that as the infrastructure improves, so too would the outlook of cyclists regarding the rules.
alkonaut 7y ago
If people have a 10-20 minute bike commute as most seem to me have in Utrecht, they probably accept a slower pace. In London I’m guessing a lot larger fraction have a 45 or 60 minute bike commute which is a) more of an exercise hour so m and b) is more sensitive to delays because of the long times involved. A city planned for cyclists is not only about good biking infra, but also about density and planning to make a large enough fraction of the people live within 20 minutes by bike from work so they can have an enjoyable short commute.
dr_dshiv 7y ago
Dutch cyclists break the laws all the time. Neither are they are particularly polite on the bike lanes (I have had a cyclist wish cancer upon me), but slight mishaps are usually met with a smile and a "sorry!" No one goes too fast, because no one wears helmets. It's cultural, I suppose -- but a culture that grows in conjunction with the infrastructure.

estsauver 7y ago

I wonder why that is, I see very, very little of that mentality in the Netherlands. There's also a very interesting phenomena where right now in London the people who bike are "Cyclists" where they're much more likely to be enthusiasts, people who want to really go fast, people who have Bicycling as part of their identity. In the Netherlands, it's just a way of getting around and not an ideology. The other contributing factor could be size. London is so much bigger than most Dutch cities. If you're commuting across London, speed probably matters much more to you.

thekid314 7y ago
Yeah, many of the cyclists in London wear fancy clothes and ride fast bikes. It's an identity thing. There is an sad/interesting gender gap too because many of the cycle commuters are male. There should be a real push by companies to make cycling more female friendly. That means having easy changing rooms/showers at work and giving women a little more time to get ready in the morning. I love biking in London, going fast to the Aldi and carrying my groceries back on the special bike lanes, but there are still issues to resolve.
- lifeisstillgood 7y ago
  The gender issue is real - I would put the ratio of female to male cyclists on the commute at about the same as in the software teams at work. Perhaps there is a similar thing going on
jacquesm 7y ago
Case in point: tourists. The Dutch cycle a lot but not so much that it becomes a goal in itself. But for tourists it is different: they don't get to do it that often so they will maximize their exposure during the little time they have in NL. Where these worlds collide (for instance: the dunes) it can get pretty annoying with tourists treating the cycling paths much as though they are highways and endangering people with small children with reckless overtaking at ridiculous speeds, and then getting upset when they do not have a clear path. Cycling is all about sharing the space in a nice way. It would be much better if these tourists took their anger home and advocated for better cycling infrastructure in their own countries.
andor 7y ago
I don't have the feeling that the mentality of cyclists and car drivers in The Netherlands is different, they just relaxed the situation by giving everyone enough space. I currently work in Utrecht. Walking around the city center, even in pedestrian zones, I need to be careful not to run into a bike. Passive-aggressive close passes are the norm. Last week I saw someone clean glass shards off a bike path. Nice gesture, right? Guess what happened next... a middle-aged lady whizzed by over that path, swearing "get off the bike lane you *#($@!!"
lifeisstillgood 7y ago
Speed might matter but so do traffic laws - it is a change of mentality that is needed - that this is not exercise and that the journey takes X minutes so leave early. we all do this for cars in london. we just need to for cycles
lifeisstillgood 7y ago
I think that is it - I am (middle aged fat happy) trying to get fitter and 3 miles across London each morning helps. But it's not a race track and it has taken me a long time to accept it for what it is - a commute in traffic, with minor exercise benefits I suspect a lot of people (younger and fitter) don't see it as such. And I get that. A long long time ago when I would cycle in car traffic, I upgraded my bike from an old cheap MTB to a nicer road bike. On the flat I saw a 5 mph increase in my top speed the very next day. And my commute time did not change a bit. It was not how fast I was capable of travelling but how many risks I was prepared to take that decided if I could shave more time off the commute. And this is it - it takes a certain amount of time to cycle a mile on the flat open road. In traffic it takes more time, and only by dialling up the risk-o-meter to 11 can you get it back down to "open flat" time. And that risk-o-meter means other people's blood so it's not acceptable. If I want my exercise then it's running on the pavement and press ups in the park.

_Wintermute 7y ago

Requiring cyclists to have number plates is just going to discourage cycling. It will cost millions to organise, will the DVLA take on this new responsibility? Do scooters count? Roller blades? A 5 year old rolling around their neighbourhood? It will push more people back into their cars resulting in a more unhealthy population running over more pedestrians, and to top it off, motorists have to be registered and that doesn't seem to discourage breaking traffic rules en masse. So basically, costs a lot of money and result in more deaths - for what benefit?

lifeisstillgood 7y ago
>>> and that doesn't seem to discourage breaking traffic rules en masse. Seriously I drive and I cycle. I have in twenty years never seen one person jump a queue and take a red light past a line of other stopped cars. I see it daily on a bike. The degree of rule breaking is orders of magnitude greater. And no I don't think it's a waste - although I do think it will take deaths before the impetus grows. I mean I had a valid number plate made in two minutes by a caravan sales person today, the ANPR cameras not only exist but actually are in place on the junctions, and if you really want you can start crowd sourcing it on the most dangerous sections. PS Scooters clearly should not count - they should just be banned and anyone over the age of 30 on one simply jailed for twenty years till they grow up ;-)

jacquesm 7y ago

Ridiculous. Cycling is a means to get around. That a bunch of hipsters now see it as an identity thing is no reason to punish everybody from age 6 up that participates in traffic. And cyclists already get fined for breaching traffic laws (and for endangering themselves or others). What you are describing is a result of a mix of 'militant cyclists' and others that see cycling as a way to set themselves apart from the rest of the crowd as well as an incomplete separation of traffic flows. It has nothing to do with regular cyclists, and chances are that if cycling becomes normalized that the hipsters will move on to skateboards or some other way in which they can differentiate themselves enough to be noticed.

lifeisstillgood 7y ago
I don't think it is a question of identity - I think it is plain selfishness and thoughtlessness. The way such behaviour was eradicated in car driving was decades long campaigns to make such behaviour socially unacceptable plus the stick of fines and traffic enforcement. Yes it would be great if cycling becomes normalised and better infrastructure is laid down - but in my view if we waved a magic wand and we had 10x more cyclists tomorrow, then we would have 10x more people behaving as recklessly - there may be some social pressure applied but it's hard to see how whizzing past at 12 mph. Ps I did see someone take this into their own hands and I wish I had got his name - he was cycling along with a megaphone in his hand - and when a pair of idiots whizzed through the lights he was stationary at he raised the megaphone and in the middle of London's rush hour bellowed out "Yes, I'm colour blind too, let's all run red lights!" Now if everyone did that we would have no need for license plates.
- jacquesm 7y ago
  License plates will make exactly zero difference.
  - lifeisstillgood 7y ago
    I am not so convinced. It's a Good Thing that this is becoming a problem - more cyclists, more dedicated lanes. This is all positive. The fact that we are now seeing cycle traffic jams and cyclists who are a danger to other road users is also a positive - it means we are becoming a significant presence on roads. This also means we need to be treated like all other road users as well. And so fines are likely to modify behaviour. I would say that plates and fines would be part of a wider campaign to reduce the worst behaviour but I still argue it would be a huge positive to treat cycles like other dangerous fast moving transports.

benj111 7y ago

I think part of the problem at the moment is that cyclists have been marginalised so much that the law hasn't really applied to them (example, most traffic lights in the UK don't detect cyclists, there was at one little used junction on a prior commute that I had to jump the lights on, because the lights never changed in my favour). I would hope that as the infrastructure improves, so too would the outlook of cyclists regarding the rules.

alkonaut 7y ago

If people have a 10-20 minute bike commute as most seem to me have in Utrecht, they probably accept a slower pace. In London I’m guessing a lot larger fraction have a 45 or 60 minute bike commute which is a) more of an exercise hour so m and b) is more sensitive to delays because of the long times involved. A city planned for cyclists is not only about good biking infra, but also about density and planning to make a large enough fraction of the people live within 20 minutes by bike from work so they can have an enjoyable short commute.

dr_dshiv 7y ago

Dutch cyclists break the laws all the time. Neither are they are particularly polite on the bike lanes (I have had a cyclist wish cancer upon me), but slight mishaps are usually met with a smile and a "sorry!" No one goes too fast, because no one wears helmets. It's cultural, I suppose -- but a culture that grows in conjunction with the infrastructure.