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I live in Tanzania and here any kid that is above the age of 2 has free rein to go wherever they want. Maybe it's not a better way (though I suspect it is), bu

by mruts 7y ago

I live in Tanzania and here any kid that is above the age of 2 has free rein to go wherever they want. Maybe it's not a better way (though I suspect it is), but it is certainly easier (assuming you don't have 8 children like most people here though).

Waterluvian 7y ago
I think it boils down to the trade off between convenience, cost, and safety. I'm convinced that kids in the developed world are so safe and so likely to see adulthood that in order to move the needle on safety even the slightest, we have to dump a huge amount of time and money into it. Okay so the infant mortality rate in Canada is at about 4 per 1000 (about 38 per 1000 in Tanzania). How do we improve that? Well let's dump an insane amount of stress and panic on parents about which way their children are facing when they sleep. That's one of thousands of examples I could come up with if pressed. We are way way way into diminishing returns here. We have so few problems that we are obsessing over error margins worth of added safety at the cost of exponential parenting efforts. I asked my dad how they let my brothers and I wander the suburb on our own as kids. Weren't they afraid we'd be kidnapped or hit by a car or drown in the river? My dad said they never knew they were supposed to be worried. It just didn't really register as a thing. It sure as hell was a far safer place to grow up than where they did. There's also another possible angle to consider. Imagine if I got all the parents in town together and said, "so we have concluded that a healthy childhood is one full of risk and freedom and adventure. We need everyone to take the proverbial training wheels off and let your kids be kids. However this will mean that some of your children aren't going to make it to adulthood. It's just the nature of this kind of upbringing."
- baxtr 7y ago
  Thanks for this comment. I always react the same whenever someone proposes to do thing the old way, eg people saying we live in an overly protective society with people wearing helmets while skiing.
- dahart 7y ago
  > I asked my dad how they let my brothers and I wanted the suburb on our own as kids. When I was 6, my parents took us to Mexico and let me and my two younger siblings wander around on our own. They also barely registered any idea of possible danger. The closest they got was when my little brother was petting a horse from behind more than a mile from home and got lightly kicked in the head. They told us to be more careful and watch out for each other, and we were wandering around the next day. It could have gone bad, but it didn’t, we survived. Other memories of my childhood include things like bouncing around in the back seat of their Buick without seatbelts. My wife had a hard time letting our own two boys wander around on their own in safe middle class neighborhoods until they were both over 12. I was pushing for more autonomy, but I have to admit I’d never have given my kids as much autonomy as I got.
  - cortesoft 7y ago
    > It could have gone bad, but it didn’t, we survived. I mean, this is literally survivorship bias. The kids that died being out on their own aren't posting about it
    - dahart 7y ago
      It’s just survivorship, without the bias. I’m pointing out that I was lucky, not concluding that my odds were any better than they were or better than anyone else’s. I literally said it could have gone bad, I’m aware childhood mortality rates were higher in the past.
cortesoft 7y ago
It would be better in some ways, but it does lead to a higher infant mortality rate (as the other commenter pointed out). I don't think I am willing to make that trade off (even if I could... I would be arrested if I let my 3 year old wonder down the street alone)
- gambiting 7y ago
  I imagine there must be some middle ground. Yes, don't let your 3 year old wander around the street on their own, but also don't make them completely reliant on your attention - just let then play on their own. If they get bored then they get bored, it's not your problem(until you make it yours of course).
  - cortesoft 7y ago
    We try this. The amount of dangerous and destructive things a 3 year old can do is crazy
phreeza 7y ago
In Zambia, and I suspect in Tanzania, too, four-year old siblings also already play a role in taking care of their smaller siblings.
- Waterluvian 7y ago
  Which they're wholly not capable of doing. They just do it because there's little alternative available yet.
baq 7y ago
I’m sorry for a stupid question but do you have streets and cars there?
pavel_lishin 7y ago
I imagine the community dynamic is entirely different there, as well as the physical dangers. I cannot let my 3 year old run around Manhattan on her own; she'd get hit by a car or a bike, or get on a bus and disappear somewhere into Brooklyn, or fall into the subway tracks.

by mruts 7y ago

Waterluvian 7y ago

I think it boils down to the trade off between convenience, cost, and safety. I'm convinced that kids in the developed world are so safe and so likely to see adulthood that in order to move the needle on safety even the slightest, we have to dump a huge amount of time and money into it. Okay so the infant mortality rate in Canada is at about 4 per 1000 (about 38 per 1000 in Tanzania). How do we improve that? Well let's dump an insane amount of stress and panic on parents about which way their children are facing when they sleep. That's one of thousands of examples I could come up with if pressed. We are way way way into diminishing returns here. We have so few problems that we are obsessing over error margins worth of added safety at the cost of exponential parenting efforts. I asked my dad how they let my brothers and I wander the suburb on our own as kids. Weren't they afraid we'd be kidnapped or hit by a car or drown in the river? My dad said they never knew they were supposed to be worried. It just didn't really register as a thing. It sure as hell was a far safer place to grow up than where they did. There's also another possible angle to consider. Imagine if I got all the parents in town together and said, "so we have concluded that a healthy childhood is one full of risk and freedom and adventure. We need everyone to take the proverbial training wheels off and let your kids be kids. However this will mean that some of your children aren't going to make it to adulthood. It's just the nature of this kind of upbringing."

baxtr 7y ago
Thanks for this comment. I always react the same whenever someone proposes to do thing the old way, eg people saying we live in an overly protective society with people wearing helmets while skiing.
dahart 7y ago
> I asked my dad how they let my brothers and I wanted the suburb on our own as kids. When I was 6, my parents took us to Mexico and let me and my two younger siblings wander around on our own. They also barely registered any idea of possible danger. The closest they got was when my little brother was petting a horse from behind more than a mile from home and got lightly kicked in the head. They told us to be more careful and watch out for each other, and we were wandering around the next day. It could have gone bad, but it didn’t, we survived. Other memories of my childhood include things like bouncing around in the back seat of their Buick without seatbelts. My wife had a hard time letting our own two boys wander around on their own in safe middle class neighborhoods until they were both over 12. I was pushing for more autonomy, but I have to admit I’d never have given my kids as much autonomy as I got.
- cortesoft 7y ago
  > It could have gone bad, but it didn’t, we survived. I mean, this is literally survivorship bias. The kids that died being out on their own aren't posting about it
  - dahart 7y ago
    It’s just survivorship, without the bias. I’m pointing out that I was lucky, not concluding that my odds were any better than they were or better than anyone else’s. I literally said it could have gone bad, I’m aware childhood mortality rates were higher in the past.

cortesoft 7y ago

It would be better in some ways, but it does lead to a higher infant mortality rate (as the other commenter pointed out). I don't think I am willing to make that trade off (even if I could... I would be arrested if I let my 3 year old wonder down the street alone)

gambiting 7y ago
I imagine there must be some middle ground. Yes, don't let your 3 year old wander around the street on their own, but also don't make them completely reliant on your attention - just let then play on their own. If they get bored then they get bored, it's not your problem(until you make it yours of course).
- cortesoft 7y ago
  We try this. The amount of dangerous and destructive things a 3 year old can do is crazy

phreeza 7y ago

In Zambia, and I suspect in Tanzania, too, four-year old siblings also already play a role in taking care of their smaller siblings.

Waterluvian 7y ago
Which they're wholly not capable of doing. They just do it because there's little alternative available yet.

baq 7y ago

I’m sorry for a stupid question but do you have streets and cars there?

pavel_lishin 7y ago

I imagine the community dynamic is entirely different there, as well as the physical dangers. I cannot let my 3 year old run around Manhattan on her own; she'd get hit by a car or a bike, or get on a bus and disappear somewhere into Brooklyn, or fall into the subway tracks.