6 ms·

That 25% number seems pretty hard to believe, given that compared to all countries (not developed countries) America is very low-crime and America is 5% of the

by qq66 16y ago

That 25% number seems pretty hard to believe, given that compared to all countries (not developed countries) America is very low-crime and America is 5% of the world's population. I suspect that either a) poorer countries are too cash-strapped to lock up dangerous criminals or b) that many poorer countries don't have reliable data on prisoner numbers.

_delirium 16y ago
Another possibility is that America is jailing a lot of people who are not really "dangerous criminals".
bad_user 16y ago
You forgot (c) law enforcement gone mad in the US.
- qq66 16y ago
  I didn't forget it, I don't think that that can be a 50x effect.
  - rhizome 16y ago
    You also can't be sure it's a zero-effect.
  - bad_user 16y ago
    Yeah, but you seem to be under the impression that the other countries have fewer inmates because they are poor? Really? How about Germany which has 95 inmates out of 100.000 people? [1] [1] http://www.kcl.ac.uk/depsta/law/research/icps/downloads/world-prison-pop-seventh.pdf http://www.kcl.ac.uk/depsta/law/research/icps/downloads/worl...
mixmax 16y ago
"The United States' incarceration rate is, according to official reports, the highest in the world, at 737 persons imprisoned per 100,000 (as of 2005).[7] A report released in 2008 indicates that in the United States more than 1 in 100 adults is now confined in an American jail or prison.[8] The United States has 4% of the world's population and 25% of the world's incarcerated population.[9]" Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration
- snippyhollow 16y ago
  Just to be exact, wikipedia is not the "source". Click on the [7] and you'll get the source: Paige M. Harrison and Allen J. Beck, Ph.D. (November 2006). "Prisoners in 2005" (PDF). U.S. Department of Justice, Office of Justice Programs, Bureau of Justice Statistics. pp. 13.
  - mixmax 16y ago
    You're, of course, as correct as I'm lazy...
Confusion 16y ago
The '25%' number is a red herring and not worth debating. The US has over 6 times the number of inmates (per capita) as the average Western European country[1][2]. How could that be, other than because of a seriously fubared justice system? [1] http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_pri_per_cap-crime-prisoners-per-capita http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_pri_per_cap-crime-pris... [2] http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/r234.pdf http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/r234.pdf
- philwelch 16y ago
  It could be because of higher crime than the average Western European country. Imprisonment is a lagging indicator, of course, so the US crime rate would have to have been higher than the average Western European crime rate 10, 20, 30 years ago, rather than today necessarily.
  - Confusion 16y ago
    Well, for instance[1] shows that the violent crime rate has been 2.5 to 3.5 times as large as in Canada between 1980 and 2000. That still leaves a factor of 2 to be explained. The other statistics in this report only makes the difference in incarceration rate harder to explain. The most common explanation I have heard is that in the US, people that are accused are both prosecuted and convicted more often. It seems extremely doubtful that the US police force and justice system could be twice as effective as that of other Western European countries. [1]http://dsp-psd.pwgsc.gc.ca/Collection-R/Statcan/85-002.../0110185-002-XIE.pdf http://dsp-psd.pwgsc.gc.ca/Collection-R/Statcan/85-002.../01...
    - philwelch 16y ago
      I'm more than willing to let that factor of 2 come down to a fubared justice system--or possibly to longer prison sentences, which is possibly a "works as designed" type of bug. Big complex problems have big and complex sets of causes. Higher actual crime is not an outlandish partial cause of a higher prison population, even if it isn't a complete explanation.
  - 16y ago

by qq66 16y ago

_delirium 16y ago

Another possibility is that America is jailing a lot of people who are not really "dangerous criminals".

bad_user 16y ago

You forgot (c) law enforcement gone mad in the US.

qq66 16y ago
I didn't forget it, I don't think that that can be a 50x effect.
- rhizome 16y ago
  You also can't be sure it's a zero-effect.
- bad_user 16y ago
  Yeah, but you seem to be under the impression that the other countries have fewer inmates because they are poor? Really? How about Germany which has 95 inmates out of 100.000 people? [1] [1] http://www.kcl.ac.uk/depsta/law/research/icps/downloads/world-prison-pop-seventh.pdf http://www.kcl.ac.uk/depsta/law/research/icps/downloads/worl...

mixmax 16y ago

"The United States' incarceration rate is, according to official reports, the highest in the world, at 737 persons imprisoned per 100,000 (as of 2005).[7] A report released in 2008 indicates that in the United States more than 1 in 100 adults is now confined in an American jail or prison.[8] The United States has 4% of the world's population and 25% of the world's incarcerated population.[9]" Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration

snippyhollow 16y ago
Just to be exact, wikipedia is not the "source". Click on the [7] and you'll get the source: Paige M. Harrison and Allen J. Beck, Ph.D. (November 2006). "Prisoners in 2005" (PDF). U.S. Department of Justice, Office of Justice Programs, Bureau of Justice Statistics. pp. 13.
- mixmax 16y ago
  You're, of course, as correct as I'm lazy...

Confusion 16y ago

The '25%' number is a red herring and not worth debating. The US has over 6 times the number of inmates (per capita) as the average Western European country[1][2]. How could that be, other than because of a seriously fubared justice system? [1] http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_pri_per_cap-crime-prisoners-per-capita http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_pri_per_cap-crime-pris... [2] http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/r234.pdf http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/r234.pdf

philwelch 16y ago
It could be because of higher crime than the average Western European country. Imprisonment is a lagging indicator, of course, so the US crime rate would have to have been higher than the average Western European crime rate 10, 20, 30 years ago, rather than today necessarily.
- Confusion 16y ago
  Well, for instance[1] shows that the violent crime rate has been 2.5 to 3.5 times as large as in Canada between 1980 and 2000. That still leaves a factor of 2 to be explained. The other statistics in this report only makes the difference in incarceration rate harder to explain. The most common explanation I have heard is that in the US, people that are accused are both prosecuted and convicted more often. It seems extremely doubtful that the US police force and justice system could be twice as effective as that of other Western European countries. [1]http://dsp-psd.pwgsc.gc.ca/Collection-R/Statcan/85-002.../0110185-002-XIE.pdf http://dsp-psd.pwgsc.gc.ca/Collection-R/Statcan/85-002.../01...
  - philwelch 16y ago
    I'm more than willing to let that factor of 2 come down to a fubared justice system--or possibly to longer prison sentences, which is possibly a "works as designed" type of bug. Big complex problems have big and complex sets of causes. Higher actual crime is not an outlandish partial cause of a higher prison population, even if it isn't a complete explanation.
- 16y ago